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Thread: Ayn Rand

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    What are ways that people unfairly come into money?
    I just got a cool $39.48 for doing two days of jury duty this month!

  2. #182
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    In other news, the new Atlas Shrugged film has a 5% rating on RT (so far.)
    You know, I read they actually tried to make this while Rand was alive, but she refused to allow them the rights unless they kept the entire John Galt speech word-for-word intact.

    Apparently, it takes a full three hours to recite the speech aloud.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I just got a cool $39.48 for doing two days of jury duty this month!
    Awesome

    Was it a good case?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The absolute meaning of "objective" is of no practical value and is not worthy of discussion.
    Then you probably should not use the word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ayn Rand thread: Topic, discuss Ayn Rand.

    Lark: Stop discussing Ayn Rand shes an authoritarian capitalist. She is the devil.

    Not excluding the right to an open and honest debate? Think about it dude.
    I'd say that's a gross over simplification but to be honest its simply not what I said.

    Ayn Rands objectivism was more about being personally responsible and not looking to the community to solve your woes. If you want more, be more productive, it's a good way to be. That's something I can live with. With regards to Atlas Shrugged it's really just looking at what eventually happens when a society perpetually redistributes wealth from those who are productive (not rich) to those who are unproductive. Viewing it as a rich vs poor argument is bad karma and an injustice.
    Again I see that as grossly over simplified, its funny that productivity and riches are positively correlated and associated in her books, there's not one character who's rich by chance or a real swindler and not one shit out of luck poor guy who's working like a bitch for an unappreciative and low paying employer that's planning to downsize his ass at the first opportuity. That's not simply fiction, that's propaganda.

    I just see Atlas Shrugged as one huge novel written in envy of the syndicalist myths about general strikes and withdrawing your labour power, in reality the rich havent ever had that option, they couldnt really imagine how that would look even in practice. So Rand gave that too them, flattering the idea that they're the only really productive people anyway in the process.

    So far as personal responsibility goes, its a great idea, it has far better representatives who sure dont conflate and confuse it with selfishness.

    At the very best Rand's perspective balances out others, however, those others are all but eclipsed and completely forgotten these days, a lot of her work is a conscious going to extremes because she felt, as many of her fans still believe, that the world had gone in the opposite extremes. As such with that context I think its possible to read it as one person's response to their self-perceived circumstances but that's not a great recommendation and its not how she's read very often.

  6. #186
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I've never studied about Rand, but upon entering the type community, I keep seeing her discussed all over the place.

    I just happened to receive this interesting article from a well known Christian apologetics ministry, on her: http://www.equip.org/articles/was-ay...y&auid=8162115

    Pretty interesting, but I fault it for the typical claim that capitalism "is fit for real, fallen, limited human beings" (which becomes the main basis for many saying it is the "Biblical" system, since the Bible teaches human "fallenness"). I say that capitalism simply manipulates that "fallen nature", and then those defending it seem to suddenly forget that "nature" that so proves it, when they get into denying the evils of the private sector, and blaming everything on the poor themselves (for being "lazy and unproductive"), and the "government" supposedly "stealing for" them, as we see going through the roof in conservative rhetoric these days. They end up in practice turning it into a utopian ideal every bit as much as a Marxist does with his philosophy.
    It ignores how the private sector gets tangled up in the government itself, and as per the example given, no the butcher cannot force you to buy his meat, but when all of them are doing the same things (because "the market" determines it, and that you have to be rich to be able to afford anything better), you're left just as much without choice.

    Anyway, it is an interesting comparison of Rand, Smith and Mandeville, from a Christian perspective. (I didn't even know a lot of Christians followed Rand).
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    What are ways that people unfairly come into money?
    Excessive inheritance, cronyism, monopolies, influenced peddling, theft

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Then you probably should not use the word.
    You're probably right that I did not use the word properly. What I want to say was that in many situations, engaging in actions forbidden by Kant principles (ie: homicide) will produce outcomes that will be judged to be superior when carefully scrutinized using commonly accepted objective criteria.

    Kant asserts that virtue does not depend on the desirability of the outcome that a moral choice produces. If that is the case, why should anyone behave virtuously?

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I've never studied about Rand, but upon entering the type community, I keep seeing her discussed all over the place.

    I just happened to receive this interesting article from a well known Christian apologetics ministry, on her: http://www.equip.org/articles/was-ay...y&auid=8162115

    Pretty interesting, but I fault it for the typical claim that capitalism "is fit for real, fallen, limited human beings" (which becomes the main basis for many saying it is the "Biblical" system, since the Bible teaches human "fallenness"). I say that capitalism simply manipulates that "fallen nature", and then those defending it seem to suddenly forget that "nature" that so proves it, when they get into denying the evils of the private sector, and blaming everything on the poor themselves (for being "lazy and unproductive"), and the "government" supposedly "stealing for" them, as we see going through the roof in conservative rhetoric these days. They end up in practice turning it into a utopian ideal every bit as much as a Marxist does with his philosophy. It ignores how the private sector gets tangled up in the government itself, and as per the example given, no the butcher cannot force you to buy his meat, but when all of them are doing the same things (because "the market" determines it, and that you have to be rich to be able to afford anything better), you're left just as much without choice.

    Anyway, it is an interesting comparison of Rand, Smith and Mandeville, from a Christian perspective. (I didn't even know a lot of Christians followed Rand).
    I've highlighted what I think is the core point to make in relation to Christian re-evaluations of Rand.

    Although the Christian, particularly evangelical, support for capitalism doesnt surprise me, it has been a feature since early misinterpreations of Weber's The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism led some to believe that protestantism and the reformation had an intimate relationship to capitalism and defending/advocating one involved defending and advocating the other.

    I know that in NI and some evangelical currents I'm familiar with there is an assumption that protestantism have a greater cultural attachment to work ethics than others, it has transfered in some ways to other culturally conservative appraisals of ethnicity, ie contrasts between (culturally defined) anglo-saxon, scandinavian, latin rim nations. This to me is a highly confused idea because my own studies of the work ethic in a historical and protestant sense is closely associated with puritanism and could be more correctly described as a ascetism or austerity ethic. That said I'm a little less acquainted with Calvinist ideas about predestination and election as indicated by temporal rewards of good fortune and accrued or accumulated wealth and how they correspond to work ethics and ideas about political economy.

    I'm less familiar still with ideas such as theonomics which appear to me to be along the same idea as the genesis of the theocons, its all a bad idea to try and create a single metanarrative and smacks of totalitarianism but I'll acknowledge my own blindspots and bias when saying that.

    Arguing that capitalism is born of human, all to human, evil is different from proclaiming it as a positive good like Rand did, Smith thought that it was a means of harnessing typical or worst motives to good ends, ie butcher, baker and candlestick maker supplying their services not from benefice and was probably closer to the Quaker ideas about economy binding people together in interdependence.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    You know, I read they actually tried to make this while Rand was alive, but she refused to allow them the rights unless they kept the entire John Galt speech word-for-word intact.

    Apparently, it takes a full three hours to recite the speech aloud.
    I did not know that.
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