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Thread: Ayn Rand

  1. #111
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Someone seeing parallels between ideologies isn't willful ignorance.

    And you're one to talk about willful ignorance, Mr. "You're trying to Ti with your Fe."
    ZING!

    Ya got me, Marm! I... I guess I...

    ROSEBUD!!!

    [mouse keels over dead]

    If it was about scoring wit points, I guess you win. I thought we were discussing... my mistake. Enjoy your 'victory.'

  2. #112
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Rand was a fan of money, and more importantly, wealth, as opposed to power.
    Well there's a problem right there...
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  3. #113
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    I'm not worked up, just following a line of my own curiosities with some things about Rand I don't quite see or don't see as real defenses

    Fair enough, becoming embroiled in the government is not good. The issue I'm having is you have a lot of what she said, but not why she thought it. Fine, don't get involved in government, not even to make government less regulated, which is a good thing by her own accounts. I don't quite see her logical progression in some of this, I guess it doesn't matter. That STILL wasn't my main complaint with Goldman-Sachs (that was intentionally defrauding customers and continuing private policies they knew were unsustainable and would cause a huge crash for personal profit). Similarly, my inference about, say, the actions of Stalin and Hitler aren't really averted. Assuming we can determine some defining, very important difference between power and money (which I haven't seen), then the only flaw in Stalin or Hitler's actions would be that they did what they did for political power instead of money. If the Holocaust or World War II had been a means to accumulate wealth, then it is good (in fact, a lot of people really did gain a lot of money from the Holocaust and war profiteering).

    The fact that the main criticism I see from an objectivist philosophy of Stalin and Hitler is not that they did bad things, but that they did it for the wrong reason, still isn't too endearing.

    And I've noted you aren't a fan, Oberon. I'm not trying to put you through the ringer or irk you or accuse you of anything untoward (that would be the same if you were an Objectivist, since I've known perfectly pleasant ones). The only book directly by Rand I've read is Anthem, other than that I've mostly seen second-hand essays praising or critiquing her work, or participated in private discussions/debates with fans of Rand or Objectivism.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well there's a problem right there...
    Only if you believe that wealth accumulation is a sin. It's no different than any other kind of accumulation, including knowledge. As long as ethical business practices are utilised, then live and let live.

  5. #115
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Only if you believe that wealth accumulation is a sin. It's no different than any other kind of accumulation, including knowledge. As long as ethical business practices are utilised, then live and let live.
    Power makes it easier to get wealth. Wealth gives one more power. It is a cycle. The reason I think her ideas there is a problem is that a separation of power and wealth never existed.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Only if you believe that wealth accumulation is a sin. It's no different than any other kind of accumulation, including knowledge. As long as ethical business practices are utilised, then live and let live.
    Going by this, power accumulation in and of itself is not a sin, just like any other kind of accumulation, is it? Ergo, the line between power and wealth is illusory. MP's point exactly.

    I'm questioning the means here, of accumulation. Live and let live isn't necessarily what I'm seeing. I'm reading "what is good for me is right" is the summation of what a man's ideology should be, and looking for a point at which that becomes untrue, at which what is good for you is not right, and I'm looking for some logical equation in the ideas and philosophy of Rand or objectivism that makes that says that self-interest can be the motivation and the action can still be bad at some point, and what that point is exactly. Where tricking, conning, underpaying or otherwise exploiting people for profit and, say, killing for the same are any different, where it is no longer just what is right for you, but what is moral in other terms. I do not see that anywhere.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  7. #117
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Frankly speaking, I don't believe in sins or religion of any kind. I also don't embrace objectivism in its entirety. People can hoard what they want, whether it's power, money, knowledge or Pokemon. It's their life.

    As far as the point of how far people should go, that's entirely up to each individual. Having said that, there are consequences to all actions and if an individual chooses to exceed the confines of the law as it pertains to individual rights, they'll bear the brunt of it.

  8. #118
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    As far as the point of how far people should go, that's entirely up to each individual. Having said that, there are consequences to all actions and if an individual chooses to exceed the confines of the law as it pertains to individual rights, they'll bear the brunt of it.
    I think that side-steps all the real questions. Of course it's ultimately up to an individual. There happen to be a ton of individuals. Society is the pattern of their interactions. We try to optimize those patterns in some way, whether I'm looking at doing something ethical because it suits my ideas or if I'm just trying to gain something for myself.
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  9. #119
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think that side-steps all the real questions. Of course it's ultimately up to an individual. There happen to be a ton of individuals. Society is the pattern of their interactions. We try to optimize those patterns in some way, whether I'm looking at doing something ethical because it suits my ideas or if I'm just trying to gain something for myself.
    No, it addresses the questions directly. Individual autonomy and rights are about as far as I'm willing to go when it comes to drawing a line. Action to consequences.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    No, it addresses the questions directly. Individual autonomy and rights are about as far as I'm willing to go when it comes to drawing a line. Action to consequences.
    The reality is there will always be people who want mutually exclusive things, and people who want a share of what isn't plentiful enough for the lot of them. Live and let live is a simple mantra that doesn't solve a single tough problem.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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