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Thread: Ayn Rand

  1. #91
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I'd say superficially it looks like she discards empathy. I think it can be agreed that empathic bonds between members of a society are part of what bind us together as a group-our own emotions force us to take care of each other, even to our own detriment. Is empathy a law of nature? Errr...

    Anyways, she doesnt really get rid of empathy but just the part that is more Fe sounding. As can be seen from quotes in the thread she stressed individuality, thus as an individual I can choose to help another of my own free will, without it being obligated as a government mandate.

    Or something like that...
    she says no person should ever put another person before themself.... Not even for the greater good, On a level it makes sense. If you spend too much time helping others at the end of the day, you are not going to end up coming home with anything. I find her way of thinking too extreme. You should never lose sight of your own purpose and things you want but should also consider you actions and their effects, choices you make and their impact on others. we may not live in a tribe
    were everyone no longer had to depend on each other to survive, but its still a good practice being helpful. values we have, have came about for a reason. please feel free to digress, say you suck ecetra

  2. #92
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    are things naturally better when everyone is happy or only a select few?
    (and im gonna attack her again, her work cant stand on its own. A good piece of work or idea should)

  3. #93
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Man came from nature, needs fresh air, clean water, and other natural conditions for adequate survival. Yes, she totally ignored that. Her over-emphasis on self-interest also ignored the fact that humans are social creatures which need one another, and in a more naturalistic environment, that need increases. Hence, I don't know that she would have fared well on the African plains, solitary and free.
    She does not say: ignore others, fight all your battles alone, but: do what serves your interests - which, on the African plains, would probably mean to become part of a group. Self-interest does not preclude the possibility to care for others.

  4. #94
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    Objectivism has its merits although the concept as a whole, is too extreme. I do like and embrace the aspect of self-responsibility and rational decision-making whereby you are responsible for your life and make it what you will. In my observations of people, if they want something bad enough, they'll find a way to get it.

  5. #95
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    she always says as a way of helping her point , "well a smart person....well a smart employer" <-----that is wrong

    can the leader of objectiveness movement not be objective? lol

  6. #96
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I didnt mean it to seem sarcastic, although were did you get the word "dickish" from?
    Maybe I just read the implications and/or tone weird. If that's the case, I'm sorry about that.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by knight View Post
    she always says as a way of helping her point , "well a smart person....well a smart employer" <-----that is wrong

    can the leader of objectiveness movement not be objective? lol
    That's the problem. She isn't entirely objective. There cannot be an objective morality - she also claimed there to be an objective aesthetic in art. So can we say objectively that she was ugly as sin?

    She had an agenda as surely as any other person (for example, saying that environmentalism opposes technology and therefore opposes humanity is merely an opinion, and in fact, appears to be a very short-sighted opinion that wasn't thought out especially carefully...I mean, look at how many jobs could be created by creating environmental technology, and how many people would cease to live if the air and water became so polluted, and plants and animals became so scarce one had to move to ...Mars? Well, they've proven that Mars actually wouldn't be inhabitable...sooooo.....)

    Her agenda was to further her preference for people in business. I don't think she even valued "work" objectively; she placed some forms of work over others.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Objectivism has its merits although the concept as a whole, is too extreme. I do like and embrace the aspect of self-responsibility and rational decision-making whereby you are responsible for your life and make it what you will.
    I take no issue with this part of it either.

    What makes it preposterious is the narrow-minded, blind extremism of it, and the claims that she's somehow more objective than everyone else in her morality.

  9. #99
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Why is that problematic? There IS nothing inherently valuable about humans. What matters is what they do, not what they are. Would you value the life of a serial killer over that of a faithful pet?

    Engaging in those activities will cause others to hate and distrust you. Since that is detrimental to your rational self interest, you should not do it.

    Nothing is absolutely right or wrong. But if you screw people over, they might lynch you.

    Didn't you just say you love reason above all else? This statement contradicts that claim.

    Again, why is that problematic? Can you prove that your values are the absolute truth?
    Distrust, lynching or abandonment only happens if A) you get caught or B) you give them somewhere else to go, of C) you are protected by other means. Goldman-Sachs, for reference, did not get lynched and made off with more money. So they acted against Objectivism because?

    And yeah, I think we should assume some inherent worth in other human beings. Otherwise, we can also assume other human beings don't deserve rights. Even serial killers deserve a trial, but without inherent worth, they don't. Without inherent worth no one does. If backlash is the only issue all you need to do is accumulate power and hold it until you die. Stalin was a pretty spot-on Randian by that definition. The holocaust wasn't what brought Hitler down, and since it provided a nice economic scapegoat, since maybe the construction of ghettos and camps and railroads or reshuffling of money in Germany may have helped the depression and built up his nation, and by proxy his own, power, you could argue it was a good thing. His only real mistake or sin at all was getting too greedy too fast in his conquests and wars. After all, he had no reason to act like those people were worth anything, and he could do everything he needed to gain power up to the tipping point of losing his life or position, and it would all be fair. Damn, by those standards the leaders in 1984 have a Randian paradise.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    And yeah, I think we should assume some inherent worth in other human beings. Otherwise, we can also assume other human beings don't deserve rights. Even serial killers deserve a trial, but without inherent worth, they don't. Without inherent worth no one does. If backlash is the only issue all you need to do is accumulate power and hold it until you die. Stalin was a pretty spot-on Randian by that definition.
    Rand, an emigrant from Lenin's Soviet Union, would likely slap you if you had said that in her presence.

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