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  1. #31
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Wow, that's pretty unusual for the Mirror to run with something like that.

  2. #32
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    I wouldnt characterise the forum as liberal, its culturally liberal but there's a very strong fiscally capitalist/conservative/libertarian element, which is possibly even stronger than the cultural liberals. It presents as great a prescence anyway.

    That mix would probably be reflective of the world at large so its not suprirising the find it represented here.

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Wow, that's pretty unusual for the Mirror to run with something like that.
    I wouldn't know, honestly. I never heard of them until the day after the 2004 election, when that came out. They weren't the only foreign paper to run stuff like that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I guarantee it won't happen. So no worries people.

    And when it doesn't happen, I'm also quoting this post to brag about my prediction.

    Republicans tried it in 1995-96, and took all the blame, and it helped Clinton get re-elected. The same thing would happen this time, as polls are already indicating.
    Well, the only poll I saw, Obama took less of an increase in blame than the 'pubs, but his disapproval rating in this area is horribly high compared to the 'pubs right now regardless.

    It didn't help that Gingrinch got quoted as saying he dug in so hard on the budget because he was pissed that Clinton made him and Dole sit in the back of Air Force 1 on some occasion. Clinton, of course, knew exactly how to frame that situation to his benefit; and a lot of public opinion turned against Gingrinch and the 'pubs... they perceived the budget balk as an issue of personal pettiness.

    Of course, the main similarity is that the 'pubs came in promising a big change in the economy, and this sort of this seems like "partisan business as usual" and doing the exact opposite of what they promised. (I honestly don't know how many times we have to go through this cycle, though, until people get more realistic expectations for what sort of change can be implemented by government. People seem honestly surprised each time.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    The reason why things like that usually don't happen in America is because of the current set up. People think they'll just make all these cuts and it will be business as usual. Idiots.
    Yes, it's a system with everything interconnected.

    The reason that the problems in the budget exist aren't because people are "wasting" money on purpose, first of all they're trying to apply limited resources to matters of what they consider priorities. But when priorities differ, fighting occurs. The priorities might not necessarily be bad in themselves.

    It's also hard to be fiscally tight when someone else will just piss your savings away and your particular constituency will still lose out. It creates a "shove your way into the trough" mentality because there is no actual benefit to trying to be ultra-responsible with money.

    Third, as you suggest, cutting things impacts the system and still can result in negative net result. At a bare minimum, cutting programs you don't think are useful does put people out of work, which then puts drains on other parts of the system. But anyway, it's like a balanced machine that you are destabilizing; you can't just cut crap without knowing what the ramifications of those cuts will be, and then having a way to compensate. If you don't, you could quickly crash the plane into the ground. I have trouble respecting simplistic thinkers who trying to consider the fed budget to be the same as balancing their checkbook as a teenager, with one part-time job and 2-3 checks written each month. It's not simply as easy as "Buckle down and don't go to the movies / eat fast food this week."

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    The thing is, these Tea Party douches are actually just a loud irritating minority (kind of like "the [Fundamentalist gay bashing abortion clinic bombing] Christian right") ...I don't think moderate Republicans are going to like this, or see this as a smooth move. I think it's very strange that these people are being catered to, as they do not represent the Republican party as a whole.
    The 'pubs don't know who they are yet. That's why the louder squeakier wheels are getting the attention right now. They also seem afraid if they are not extremists, they'll not get anything they want. Unfortunately, a lot of moderate voices seem to be getting locked out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    The problem is that the politicians actually have very little control over spending. Republican or Democrat, the trend has been towards bigger government for a long time. It is not like balancing ones 'checkbook' since the government is of such a scale that it cannot effectively gather and process information with regards to priorities and actual outcomes. Government spending priorities are not automatically more valuable than private ones. But I can show you many inequities within US government spending (compared to the plurality of American democratic values) that have existed for quite some time, many of which politicians seem oblivious.

    This is why the budget has become unsustainable. We are fooling ourselves if we believe that Congress and the Senate are "in control" of spending.

    The problem is one of scale and this crisis was inevitable.

    The solution is one of restructuring away from federal government and towards state and local government.

    The "loss of government jobs" argument is merely a short term cost, those individuals still have skills and there is demand for them elsewhere. (The long term unemployed are ultimately that way because they either have untreated/untreatable medical conditions or are unable to acquire the skills to gain and sustain employment. Actually, one of the most positive outcomes of the Medicare (and related) programs may in part reduce welfare costs due to the increased availability of treatments that may allow some with medical conditions to work.)

    If significant cuts aren't made, debt repayments will swallow up the budget. But many departments could be substantially reformed without significantly negative societal outcomes. Do we really need all those foreign military bases and excursions? Do we really need a complicated, corrupt and expensive FDA approval system (I'm not saying abolish, I'm suggesting significant reform)? Do we need a federal department of education, or should we localise this? Perhaps implement a school choice voucher scheme and let local schools organise their own administration.

    Are they going to do this? I doubt it. I just hope the actions of Americans doesn't harm the rest of the world too much.
    Last edited by Octarine; 04-08-2011 at 01:11 AM.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    If it does manage to shutdown... I don't think it's going to pan out quite the same way as it did in '95. What's sad is Boehner seems to want to try and come to a compromise, but is fearful of the retaliation the tea-partiers are claiming they'll dish out if he does compromise... My husband is in the military (and an officer, not just a private), and he's said it time and time again, "We're broke, yet we have troops over seas and are shooting missiles at Libya.... Seems to me that one step in the right direction would be to bring troops back and let the rest of the world deal with Libya."

    As far as a the whole government shutting down, it won't be completely shut down... There will be skeleton crews running social security and certain necessary offices. Veterans Affair has already received confirmation that they won't be affected because their budget has been approved through October of 2012 already. Social security and disability checks will still go out, they'll just likely be delayed.... Who knows how long that delay will be though.

  8. #38
    Giggity Vie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    If it does manage to shutdown... I don't think it's going to pan out quite the same way as it did in '95. What's sad is Boehner seems to want to try and come to a compromise, but is fearful of the retaliation the tea-partiers are claiming they'll dish out if he does compromise... My husband is in the military (and an officer, not just a private), and he's said it time and time again, "We're broke, yet we have troops over seas and are shooting missiles at Libya.... Seems to me that one step in the right direction would be to bring troops back and let the rest of the world deal with Libya."

    As far as a the whole government shutting down, it won't be completely shut down... There will be skeleton crews running social security and certain necessary offices. Veterans Affair has already received confirmation that they won't be affected because their budget has been approved through October of 2012 already. Social security and disability checks will still go out, they'll just likely be delayed.... Who knows how long that delay will be though.
    Your husband is very wise.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    The problem is that the politicians actually have very little control over spending. Republican or Democrat, the trend has been towards bigger government for a long time. It is not like balancing ones 'checkbook' since the government is of such a scale that it cannot effectively gather and process information with regards to priorities and actual outcomes. Government spending priorities are not automatically more valuable than private ones. But I can show you many inequities within US government spending (compared to the plurality of American democratic values) that have existed for quite some time, many of which politicians seem oblivious.

    This is why the budget has become unsustainable. We are fooling ourselves if we believe that Congress and the Senate are "in control" of spending.

    The problem is one of scale and this crisis was inevitable.

    The solution is one of restructuring away from federal government and towards state and local government.

    The "loss of government jobs" argument is merely a short term cost, those individuals still have skills and there is demand for them elsewhere. (The long term employed are ultimately that way because they either have untreated/untreatable medical conditions or are unable to acquire the skills to gain and sustain employment. Actually, one of the most positive outcomes of the Medicare program may in part reduce welfare costs due to the treatment of those with medical conditions, allowing them to work.)

    If significant cuts aren't made, debt repayments will swallow up the budget. But many departments could be substantially reformed without significantly negative societal outcomes. Do we really need all those foreign military bases and excursions? Do we really need a complicated, corrupt and expensive FDA approval system (I'm not saying abolish, I'm suggesting significant reform)? Do we need a federal department of education, or should we localise this? Perhaps implement a school choice voucher scheme and let local schools organise their own administration.

    Are they going to do this? I doubt it. I just hope the actions of Americans doesn't harm the rest of the world too much.
    I'm sorry you were saying this will allow people with untreated medical conditions to work?

    I'd respected many of your posts until I read that, but what you said is so heinous I can't even wrap my mind around it. You want disabled people to work? Like severe schizophrenics who are barely functional, and people with physical conditions which make it nearly impossible for them to work - especially without the education it requires to do white collar (less physically taxing) work?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    If it does manage to shutdown... I don't think it's going to pan out quite the same way as it did in '95. What's sad is Boehner seems to want to try and come to a compromise, but is fearful of the retaliation the tea-partiers are claiming they'll dish out if he does compromise... My husband is in the military (and an officer, not just a private), and he's said it time and time again, "We're broke, yet we have troops over seas and are shooting missiles at Libya.... Seems to me that one step in the right direction would be to bring troops back and let the rest of the world deal with Libya."

    As far as a the whole government shutting down, it won't be completely shut down... There will be skeleton crews running social security and certain necessary offices. Veterans Affair has already received confirmation that they won't be affected because their budget has been approved through October of 2012 already. Social security and disability checks will still go out, they'll just likely be delayed.... Who knows how long that delay will be though.
    He's fearful of the tea partiers? Why?

    If they do anything illegal or severely disruptive, they can be handled.

    If they're threatening people, I think they should be even less respected than they already are. That's reason to NOT listen to them, not reason to concede to their childish wishes.

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