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  1. #141
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Insurance companies love to rip people off. That's why you can pay four times as much for the same medicine during a hospital stay as you would getting it on an out-patient basis from a pharmacy.
    Arguably one of the reasons for this is because it is usually the employer, rather than the individual (like in other countries) who chooses the insurer. The result is a lack of options and competition. Unfortunately, this has not been addressed with the recent legislation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its strange to me that peoples political affiliation is on their driving licence in the states or that you register as one or the other.
    Really? I wonder what the reasoning for this is?

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yeah, and if that weren't bad in itself; they are indignantly ANGRY at those they blame; truly seeing them as salting away the entire economy and quality of life. In other sites I go on, I see names such as "thugs", "slugs", "goons", "bums", and the latest one, based on a recent Wall Street Journal article; "takers, not makers". Most of this is aimed at unions now, in light of recent news events, but it's also thought of regarding minorities.
    It's the same exact thing. People think of themselves as "the chosen", which to them means special privilege in the world. This is fueled from a past where they did have more power. Yet, they see they are losing it, and thus those seen as taking it from them (as well as people in their own movement seen as "compromising" somehow) must be blamed and demonized as the enemies of God. We're all suffering "curses" because of these other people's sins.

    What both the Pharisees, and many people today have missed, is, first of all, "chosenness" is a burden of service to God, not ruling over others. God did promise at times rulership, but that was only if they held up their end of the covenant through faithful service. The Israelites didn't. Hence, becoming dominated by the Gentiles. Going to the opposite extreme of legalism did not make up for this; it only made it worse!
    Rulership was promised to Christians also, but this was when Christ returned. However, there were differing interpretations of this, that led some to feel the Kingdom was the Church and the nations the growing institution eventually dominated. So it was the same thing all over again.
    Eventually, people break away and form America, and with something called "covenant theology" surmised that the country was the new Israel, and among some, that wealth was the sign of election! So this whole attitude stuck, even among those who do not officially believe that theology.

    So yes, they condemn the modern prosperity gospel, but that is just a more consistent version of their ideology. The error of prosperity gospel I guess is that it extends the "blessings" to everyone.
    To them, it's not greed, because they "worked for it", and "the market" says they're worth it. Then, they just point out how the liberals are the ones who favor "murder" though abortion, and the "greed" of the poor who want something for nothing, and buy big fancy cars an stuff with their welfare check.
    While we could debate whether or not abortion is "murder" (I am staunchly pro-choice, but would never actually have an abortion myself, and it's not because I inherently believe its "murder" its because I am not comfortable with it for various reasons) and we could also debate about the ability to buy "fancy cars" with welfare checks (is this not an exaggeration? I believe it is, though I'm sure some buy big screen TVs) ...I will absolutely never bend on the Medicare/Medicaid issue because that is basic healthcare for children, elderly, and the disabled, and money spent on healthcare cannot be squandered on "fancy cars" or anything of that nature, and I will never budge on that issue - I sincerely believe it is immoral to slash programs related to health, disability, and age. The reason why I was outraged by the Planned Parenthood issue is because they provide things like pap smears, birth control pills, STD testing, and condoms. They also educate people and even perform operations to prevent cervical cancer in women.

  3. #143
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Oh, yeah; the "big screen TV's". That's what they usually point out the poor as buying.
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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Oh, yeah; the "big screen TV's". That's what they usually point out the poor as buying.
    That's much more likely than "fancy cars" which is just totally made up. Welfare checks are small, I mean LOL.

    The thing is, though, people with disabilities need SSI (and the amount of the checks is lower than what a person would make in a month working at a minimum wage job, it is NOT much money at all)...and I don't comprehend what their rationale is in cutting programs for old people and the disabled...let's see, we're going to throw grandma in the trash dumpster and allow even more mentally ill people to roam the streets? How about those with physical disablilities? I MEAN WHAT THE HELL, COME ON NOW, REALLY?

    They make up these myths about "welfare queens" who have multiple children so they collect checks and don't have to work, but they, in truth, make up an extremely small number of people who receive assistence...even if there's a shred of truth to those myths, in actual numbers it's quite negligible.

    Many people who receive assistance still work and/or go to university, et al.

    We could salvage all entitlement programs by cutting war spending by a couple of days. A COUPLE OF DAYS!

    That's another thing that makes me upset.

  5. #145
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    They make up these myths about "welfare queens" who have multiple children so they collect checks and don't have to work, but they, in truth, make up an extremely small number of people who receive assistence...even if there's a shred of truth to those myths, in actual numbers it's quite negligible.
    That''s what I've always noted, but they continued to complain on about welfare. And again, it was reformed, under Clinton of all people. Now, most have to work for the check. Some may still slip through the cracks, but these are usually people with children with some sort of disability (sometimes it's not something they really need assistance for, but by the time you factor all of this stuff, as you said; it's totally negligible).

    There's this saying passing around that captures this excellently:
    Big Business, a Tea Partier and Organized Labor are sitting around a table. A dozen cookies arrive on a plate. Big Business takes eleven of them and says to the Tea Partier, "Pssst! That union guy is trying to steal your cookie!"

    Still, they blame the union guy for the big business guy taking the eleven cookies!

    I'm not sure what conservatives say about the aged and such. They can't stop focusing on young welfare people long enough to address that. But I have seen libertarians say "well, their families should take care of them". (Like what if they don't have families!)
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    That''s what I've always noted, but they continued to complain on about welfare. And again, it was reformed, under Clinton of all people. Now, most have to work for the check. Some may still slip through the cracks, but these are usually people with children with some sort of disability (sometimes it's not something they really need assistance for, but by the time you factor all of this stuff, as you said; it's totally negligible).

    There's this saying passing around that captures this excellently:
    Big Business, a Tea Partier and Organized Labor are sitting around a table. A dozen cookies arrive on a plate. Big Business takes eleven of them and says to the Tea Partier, "Pssst! That union guy is trying to steal your cookie!"

    Still, they blame the union guy for the big business guy taking the eleven cookies!

    I'm not sure what conservatives say about the aged and such. They can't stop focusing on young welfare people long enough to address that. But I have seen libertarians say "well, their families should take care of them". (Like what if they don't have families!)
    Yeah, the "their families should take care of them" line is laughable when they've created a system which essentially pays people a minimum wage that isn't even a livable wage, and expects people who just get by themselves, to also pay for all the needs of a disabled person (who, by the way, needs lots of medical care...and many average healthy people can't even afford medical care for themselves!)

    I don't know if these people are delusional or they really want the United States to become like a developing nation. It boggles my mind. I believe it to largely be delusion because they can't see it happening to themselves. However, what if it does? Anyone can get into a car accident. Anyone can get AIDS. Everyone gets old.

    I love the big business taking eleven cookies metaphor, it pretty much sums it up perfectly.

  7. #147
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yeah, the "their families should take care of them" line is laughable when they've created a system which essentially pays people a minimum wage that isn't even a livable wage, and expects people who just get by themselves, to also pay for all the needs of a disabled person (who, by the way, needs lots of medical care...and many average healthy people can't even afford medical care for themselves!)

    I don't know if these people are delusional or they really want the United States to become like a developing nation. It boggles my mind. I believe it to largely be delusion because they can't see it happening to themselves. However, what if it does? Anyone can get into a car accident. Anyone can get AIDS. Everyone gets old.

    I love the big business taking eleven cookies metaphor, it pretty much sums it up perfectly.
    1% of America's population has ~40% percent of the wealth of America, you make the decision on who stole the cookie.

    Pretty much the majority of Americans are screwed because of these economic "elites." It does not get any better when we also look at the next 19% of the population.

  8. #148
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its strange to me that peoples political affiliation is on their driving licence in the states or that you register as one or the other.
    Yeah. I wouldn't say strage - I'd say absolutely scary. Unless you're not forced to.
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  9. #149
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    According to Michael Moore, America is not broke.
    Today just 400 Americans have the same wealth as half of all Americans combined.
    Hmm..

    http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/03/...-of-americans/

    With regards to taxation, people need to separate the concept of corporate tax and income tax. If corporate tax is raised significantly, then companies will consider moving. Income tax is a little different as individuals have less choice. Secondly, among the ultra rich, taxing an extra 50 million doesn't make much difference to your lifestyle if you earned 200 million net. If you raise income tax among the ultra rich, chances are they will stay in the country, but that money will stay invested (to avoid paying that extra tax) rather than being used as personal income for the purposes of consumption. You could live elsewhere, but what are the choices? What did individuals do in the past when tax for the ultra rich really was high?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I'm not sure what conservatives say about the aged and such. They can't stop focusing on young welfare people long enough to address that. But I have seen libertarians say "well, their families should take care of them". (Like what if they don't have families!)
    The demographic issue is one of the reasons why we are in this mess in the first place. This is a generalisation, but baby boomers want to retire early (in terms of physical functioning and life expectancy) and remain living lifestyles with the highest consumption levels in history. Of course when they run out of cash, the government will be there to help them right? If it can afford it. Hence the "worry" about a future commitment to balancing the budget.

    If we abolished the aged pension, then those who were aged who could not work would still be eligible for a disability pension. In fact I predict that the aged pension in the future will be revised in such a way as to not merely be based on age. Combined with increased tax breaks for those who hire people who are aged or have disabilities. (many of the regulations passed in the last 20 years have actually made it more expensive to hire those with disabilities, along with greater difficulties in firing etc, all contributing to higher unemployment).

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah. I wouldn't say strage - I'd say absolutely scary. Unless you're not forced to.
    Even if you are not forced to state your affiliation, it still seems like unnecessary compulsion.

  10. #150
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its strange to me that peoples political affiliation is on their driving licence in the states or that you register as one or the other.
    Allow me to explain this one:

    Some states have 'closed primaries' in which voters are only allowed to vote in party primaries if they are officially labeled as a member of that party. Other states (like mine) have an 'open primary' system in which voters of either party (and independents, etc.) can vote in any party primary (but no more than one party primary, for obvious reasons). Consequently, my state doesn't show political affiliation on driver's liscences. I agree that its fucked-up that some states do this, its probably a legacy of past (or current) political machines. Many voters in such states actually prefer the other party, but register as 'Republican' or 'Democrat' because their preferred party is not competitive in their district.

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