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  1. #21
    heart on fire
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    Want content?: "I promise to do whatever it takes to repay my most important contributers and in the process I will throw a few crumbs at my party's voter base to make it all look less obvious, meanwhile I also promise to get as many petty and off topic scandals going as possible so that the two sides of the two party system will be so busy fighting each other to focus on how little I actually do in relation to all that stuff about bringing jobs back and healthcare and whatnot...:"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    The press is going to glorify whatever he does... he's their man.
    Don't blame them. We have to switch sides now. Of course he is their man. It is all part of the larger game.

    Too much blame going on the right. They will play the left side for a while until they feel too much blame going there. Folks, there is change in the air! Change in the air! Sit aside your nagging feeling that nothing ever changes in politics because help is on the way!

    Woo Hoo!

  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    It looks to me like the white America suddenly opened its eyes and discovered that Obama really IS black, and now they all want to run away.
    Nothing about Obama's involvement in this church strikes me as shocking,
    really.

    Now what's going to happen is that we'll wind up with a president who just continues the same garbage Bush has been destroying our country with for eight years. And don't make me laugh with comments about Clinton--she killed herself a while ago.

    Obama losing = Democrats losing.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Has he really alienated anyone else with his speech besides the ones who already saw through his shtick? The responses to it were disgustingly laudatory.
    I actually found every kind of response to it...

    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    One journalist said it was alternately one of the best in human history and then one of the best in the past 45 years,[/QUOTE[ when all he did was eloquently regurgitate the same old racial victimhood BS we've been hearing for the past 4 decades.
    Probably because there are still the same racial issues as four decades ago. Did you think of that?
    I don't think you're giving him credit for how hard he tried to bring both sides together. I mean, he absolved Ferraro(who idiotically complained about it) and remarked how he couldn't denounce his white grandmother for being a racist. He was unusually candid about race for such a mainstream politician.

    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Post-racial my ass.
    He can't be post-racial when everyone else is grilling him on his race.
    That seems to be more the fault of people like you than him.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Let's break the cycle. Some commentary to jog discussion.

    From the WSJ:

    From the LA Times:

    Interesting quotes from Obama's speech:
    I don't have much opinion on Obama himself. I'm a middle-of-the road independent, I don't vote in primaries, so I don't bother focusing on politics until after the primaries are done and the two big-party candidates are chosen. (I used to be more involved many years ago, but I've gotten a little burnt out on election-year politics over time.)

    But taking Obama's speech in isolation, I thought it was good. Having grown up in the civil rights era, I pay attention to racial issues and I'm interested when politicians tackle those issues head-on. Obama "split the difference" a lot of the time by acknowledging the grievance of both sides; but overall he tackled the tough issues head-on and was pretty much honest about the fears and anger behind those issues on both sides.

    The LA Times commentary and the WSJ commentary (linked above) are studies in contrast. The LA Times commentary praised Obama's speech and called it refreshingly honest. The WSJ commentary, on the other hand, basically called Obama an appeaser, empty of content, and irrevocably tainted by 20 years of attendance at a black nationalist church where the pastor occasionally made anti-white comments.

    The LA Times commentary praises the speech a bit too much perhaps. Other commentaries in other newspapers have noted that the speech wasn't perhaps as honest as it might have been--perhaps meaning that Obama didn't answer to their satisfaction why he patronized that particular church for so many years, and didn't protest the anti-white rhetoric, rather than switch to a more moderate church .

    On the other hand, the WSJ commentary goes way too far in the other direction by roundly condemning Obama merely for attending that church and by defining Obama's candidacy and Obama himself only in terms of the color of his skin and Obama's (presumed) insecurities about his skin color. (FWIW, the readers' comments on the WSJ message board linked at the bottom of the commentary were mostly very negative about the commentary.)

    Personally, I think a lot of older Americans understand that once upon a time there was a very real racial divide in America, and black people straddling that divide had to live a bit of a schizophrenic life--acting "black" in the black community and acting "white" in the white community. When asked about how they felt about living with those contradictions and about accepting and even supporting the faults of this or that community, such blacks made it clear that they fully understood the faults of both communities and the contradictions of mingling with both communities. But that was their life--they had a foot in both communities and that meant putting up with the contradictions and faults.

    I think the racial divide is more porous these days; there is a large black middle class that in a way sits squarely on the divide and bridges it rather than straddles it. But Obama dates back to the older days, and he almost certainly has some roots in the old black activist community and the old guard of black politicians. So it's not so weird (or worthy of condemnation) to hear that Obama still maintains ties with portions of the activist community in portions of his life.

    Obama is right when he says that the older black generation still remembers the indignities of the past: "For the men and women of Rev. Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years." At the same time, like the old blacks straddling the old divide, Obama made it clear in his speech that he fully understands the faults of both communities and the contradictions of mingling with both communities.

    So in that sense, I think the speech is honest and brave. As I see it, Obama is explaining his life--he has a foot in both communities and that means putting up with the contradictions and faults. He can't reconcile them, but at least he can be honest and candid about addressing them in a national-level speech. And frankly that's a lot more honesty and candor than one usually hears in an election cycle.

    So overall I liked the speech. It's consistent with what I know of old-style racial politics; it doesn't turn its back on any community, old or new, black or white; and Obama does use his awareness of the faults of both communities to try to point out some ways that everyone can move forward on these issues.

    Of course, none of this addresses what kind of president Obama might be. The speech is only about racial issues, which frankly isn't high on the list of presidential priorities these days. Still, it's a fairly honest, interesting speech about an issue that has been lurking at the back of the Democratic primaries but has largely been sidestepped. I'm glad to see Obama "come out of the closet" on this issue, and I was pleased to see Obama take a thoughtful, nuanced, honest approach to the issue (rather than, for example, simply using it for personal leverage).
    Last edited by RDF; 03-21-2008 at 02:19 AM.

  6. #26
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Look out, someone's been accessing Obama's passport records illegally!

    Motive sought for Obama passport breach - Yahoo! News
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #27
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Yeah, maybe not, but the fact that he defends his membership with an organization that vehemently promotes such an ideology speaks volumes about his lack of personal conviction.
    And this coming from someone whose avatar at INTPC could be perceived as a representation of Nazi Germany? Interesting.

  8. #28
    Senior Member creativeRhino's Avatar
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    His speech is not about righting wrongs and pointing the blame at any one group. Yes, without action is is just another bit of oxygen banditry,

    however it is not often that politicians themselves out the real reason that democracy as we know it just maintains a status quo (to use the old joke that "if voting could change anything it would have been made illegal years ago") -

    There's this bit from his speech -

    Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.
    This could be used in many countries where there's suspicion/scapegoating etc of any one group (Fijians against Indians, Black indigenous and white South Africans against blacks from the north, Australians and refugees/indigenous folks, Malays and the local Chinese).

    These sorts of comments are oft used by commentators/academics etc - but not the mainstream popularist media and the politicians in the circus.

    Will is speech accomplish anything? Only time will tell, but the core issues are not just US centric - they are globally experienced in the "globalised economy". That is why it is getting "good press" response.

    But no one person can change anything (well unless they are a despot/dictator) and he puts the issue back in the voters hands -

    For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism.
    We can do that.

    ............

    But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.
    So while once an election campaign is underway it is a challenge to shift the topics and level of debate, it has to start somewhere. If not now, when?

    We get the politicians we deserve. If we are apathetic and short sighted we get politicians that measure up to that. I've spent time in countries with no democracy and those folks are generally horrified as to how we waste the power we could have to shape our countries.
    Last edited by creativeRhino; 03-21-2008 at 10:46 PM. Reason: to fix accidental incomplete post

  9. #29
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    Damn! My secret skinhead identity has been revealed!

    But speaking of dubious perceptions, did you know that "?" represents a mistake in algebraic chess notation?
    And "??" represents a blunder, so you might want to be on the safe side and not post again.
    I don't wanna!

  10. #30
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    I think, for the most part, it's a pretty courageous move on Obama's part. How easy would it have been for him to simply dismiss the pastor and cut all ties with him, and have that be the end of it?

    Instead he's actually addressing the issue behind it.

    Good on him.
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