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  1. #11
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Because people want to get paid for their work.
    No one wants to produce things for free, therefore things will always cost money.

    Any other system which does not follow the above principle will always fail.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    Because people want to get paid for their work.
    No one wants to produce things for free, therefore things will always cost money.

    Any other system which does not follow the above principle will always fail.
    Isn't it funny, then, that some capitalists want to abolish minimum wage and pay people two dollars an hour.

    Free-Market Capitalism fail.

    Anyway, to answer the OP, I believe the most effective system combines capitalism with some common sense social programs, which cause society as a whole to function better - reducing crime and pollution, etc. I think the Northern Europeans are doing it best at the moment.

  3. #13
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    We have mixed economies in most of the world right now. It's working, aside from the environmental problems. Let it be.

  4. #14
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    We have mixed economies in most of the world right now. It's working, aside from the environmental problems. Let it be.
    No, it's not. Or have you not been paying attention?

  5. #15
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Free exchange requires perfect information balance. Neither it, nor the adherence to the rule of law, exist in the practice of a capitalist system.
    The rule of law is sustained better in predominately capitalist mixed economies than in predominately socialist ones, largely because the emphasis on free exchange results in a general lack of laws against economic activities that large numbers of people wish to engage in, so people are more likely to view adherence to laws that exist as a virtue. The two concepts reinforce each other.

  6. #16
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    No, it's not. Or have you not been paying attention?
    Either that or I have a different idea of "working." The global situation is starting to shift. Trade barriers are lessening because of globalism. Undeveloped countries are developing. What problems are you looking at?

  7. #17
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Isn't it funny, then, that some capitalists want to abolish minimum wage and pay people two dollars an hour.

    Free-Market Capitalism fail.

    Anyway, to answer the OP, I believe the most effective system combines capitalism with some common sense social programs, which cause society as a whole to function better - reducing crime and pollution, etc. I think the Northern Europeans are doing it best at the moment.
    If "higher" wages are inherently better than "lower" wages, then we should be happy when the currency inflates. Pre-war germany is an ideal society!
    You lose.

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  8. #18
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Either that or I have a different idea of "working." The global situation is starting to shift. Trade barriers are lessening because of globalism. Undeveloped countries are developing. What problems are you looking at?
    That as a result of this, qualities of life in developing countries are marginally better, but it comes at the terrible price of destroying local culture, not to mention the physical costs of unrestrained capitalism, such as high workplace mortality, catastrophes like the Union Carbide explosion in the '80s, or the various oil spills worldwide over the last two decades. In the developed countries, it's undermining the quality of life for everyone who is not in the capitalist class.

    Capitalism only works when the source of wealth is limitless. As every economist knows, the source of wealth ultimately is the Earth itself (value comes from the result of three factors - the Earth, labor, and efficient distribution, aka the primary, secondary and tertiary economies). With technological developments and the massively expanded demand of the planet's population, we're hitting the point where we can no longer assume that the source of wealth is limitless. Capitalism, by its very nature, cannot comprehend true scarcity; within the system, scarcity is nothing more than a supply bottleneck, and the assumption is that it can somehow be fixed through the application of labor or technology.

  9. #19
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The rule of law is sustained better in predominately capitalist mixed economies than in predominately socialist ones, largely because the emphasis on free exchange results in a general lack of laws against economic activities that large numbers of people wish to engage in, so people are more likely to view adherence to laws that exist as a virtue. The two concepts reinforce each other.
    Are you really saying that the mass-scale fraud, corruption and rapaciousness of the financial sector that we've seen over the last 4 years have been nothing but a mass delusion?

    Part of the problem here is a definitional one - there are two concepts of "law", and English, unfortunately, is deficient in that there is only one word for the two concepts. German is probably the best language to use to demonstrate the concept: the two words for "law" are "Gesetz" and "Recht". Gesetz refers to the specific rules that society lives by. However, these always stand in comparison to a much broader concept - Recht - which refers to the intuitive and moral understanding of how members of society should live. In capitalist societies, it is more than easy to have a comprehensive Gesetz system that is generally followed. However, there is no broader sense of Recht within the capitalist class - they have no moral obligation to society, because they own it.

    So, the capitalist class can have a bunch of tax cheats, political grafters, and profiteers of misery, but they will all be within the letter of the law, for it is the law that they themselves wrote. However, they are still in violation of the unspoken social contract, and that is what eventually leads to unrest.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    If "higher" wages are inherently better than "lower" wages, then we should be happy when the currency inflates. Pre-war germany is an ideal society!
    Untrue. Inflation does not increase your purchasing power.

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