User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 24

  1. #1
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default We Launched Airstrikes against Libyan Government Forces

    Here are some articles from CNN on the topic.

    Nations bombing Libya are 'terrorists,' Gadhafi says

    Libya's civil war and U.N. intervention

    Under the circumstances, can we believe this?

    Why Libya 2011 is not Iraq 2003

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. This current president of ours is conducting business-as-usual, politics be damned. I wasn't happy about the Bush wars, but it'll take more than a CNN editorial to show me how this one is somehow qualitatively different.

    'No blood for oil' indeed...

    -da mouse

  2. #2
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The more things change, the more they stay the same. This current president of ours is conducting business-as-usual, politics be damned. I wasn't happy about the Bush wars, but it'll take more than a CNN editorial to show me how this one is somehow qualitatively different.
    If no ground troops become involved, it is qualitatively* different in that sense, plus we were invited in by the Arab League, which makes it more difficult to recruit foreign jihadists (who can't do as much damage on the air and seas as on land in any event).

    The Arab League had better be picking up the fucking bill, however.

    *qualitatively different in terms of the type of mission (no-fly enforcement versus nation-building) it is...perhaps you were thinking of a different criteria?

  3. #3
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Our biggest mistake (and that of the other nations) was waiting this long. We could have helped when the momentum was in the rebellion's favor, or we could have decided not to at all. Instead, we decide to start helping when the tide is strong against our cause, as though we are intentionally maximizing our expenses.

    I'm not gung ho about deploying military force, but this, at least in the initial phase, different from Iraq. We have a clear anti-government force that already got into action without us saying a word. We have the support of the Arab league, as well as a UN mandate which has also brought France into the action (in fact, they were the first to strike, yes?). And indeed, we are currently attacking with aircraft and naval units, but feet, tracks, and wheels are staying off the ground so far.

    Now, depending on how this plays out, it very well could sadly evolve into another Iraq-like situation instead of being a moral and productive campaign.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #4
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    This could be the advent of a different sort of world order, the developed, high tech militarised nations allied against the out matched and underdeveloped nations.

    If the mood in the developed world militates against social spending because millionaires want a tax break the spending has got to go some place, military spending it may as well be, it benefits the millionaires anyway (and a lot of the pension schemes for the less fortunate).

    Those weapons systems which can be deployed without troops are seriously awesome, the Libyans pretty much havent a chance.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    The Arab league is now crying about civilian casualties, as though you can wage war without any civilian casualties. Now I think we should back out and tell the Arab league to do it all themselves.

    I don't think collateral damage is fine. I believe limiting collateral damage should be a priority, but it's simply not possible to wage war with zero civilian casualties.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #6
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    *qualitatively different in terms of the type of mission (no-fly enforcement versus nation-building) it is...perhaps you were thinking of a different criteria?
    But the no-fly enforcement is nothing other than military effort in support of nation-building. The UN-approved military efforts by NATO allies have opposed Libyan military units in support of a popular uprising against Gaddafi, specifically for the purpose of overthrowing the Gaddafi regime. The US government has siezed 30 billion dollars worth of the dictator's family assets held by US banks, again in support of toppling the Gaddafi regime. What can this possibly be if it isn't nation-building?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    But the no-fly enforcement is nothing other than military effort in support of nation-building. The UN-approved military efforts by NATO allies have opposed Libyan military units in support of a popular uprising against Gaddafi, specifically for the purpose of overthrowing the Gaddafi regime. The US government has siezed 30 billion dollars worth of the dictator's family assets held by US banks, again in support of toppling the Gaddafi regime. What can this possibly be if it isn't nation-building?
    I think nation building is more comprehensive than just supporting or helping to overthrow a dictator.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #8
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think nation building is more comprehensive than just supporting or helping to overthrow a dictator.
    Yes, but isn't overthrowing a dictator a piece of the nation-building process?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Yes, but isn't overthrowing a dictator a piece of the nation-building process?
    That's a good question.

    I was thinking about this today, actually in relation to some observations Engels made about technological advances and military theorising, the government of most countries has its population hopelessly outmatched in terms of its ability to act violently, so uprising and revolution is nothing like it once was, if it ever was an equal battle.

    The control of air space could be a sort of correction, to a certain extent, allowing a revolution, if it is one, to take place.

    Although I'm beginning to suspect that there is not as much domestic resistance to Gaddafi as has been reported.

  10. #10
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,024

    Default

    The U.S. is in enough economic trouble trying to front two wars, that they should have taken a back seat in this one. What was even more interesting was that relatively wealthy countries like China, Russia, India, Brazil and Germany, abstained from voting. Time to do the math as to why they made their more economical and political choice to abstain.

Similar Threads

  1. Nigel Farage Rallies Planet Against Tyrannical World Government
    By Xann in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-01-2016, 09:55 PM
  2. Why do we need government transparency?
    By Lateralus in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 02-20-2014, 09:51 AM
  3. As Westerners, what are we against the most?
    By ilikeitlikethat in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 08-14-2012, 10:40 AM
  4. Are We Governed by Nitwits?
    By wildcat in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-31-2009, 01:43 PM
  5. Do we dare hope?
    By Xander in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-19-2007, 08:17 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO