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  1. #21
    Insert Snarky Quip Here Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Prison should be set in more distinct levels, that is there should be different prisons, or rather different sections of prisons should be resevered for different kinds of prisoners. For example have sections of prison for rapists, another section for those who murder out of passion, another for those who pre-meditate murder, another for drug related crims, etc.
    Theoretically, that could probably be a good idea, yet it comes off extremely idealistic. How would this be implemented? Allocate tax funds toward the building of new prisons? Continue using existing facilities, yet transfer prisoners based on crime to a different location? Despite whatever process would be used, all of them would take time and resources, and certainly wouldn't be cost efficient. Even despite those, what of value would really be gained through segregating and organizing them based upon crimes? I think the current tiered penal system works just fine without the whole process becoming convoluted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Prisoners should not be grouped in the same rooms with each other. Prison riots and prison rape, along with people getting killed in prison, are a serious problem. Therefore each prisoner should have one cell to themselves. They should also have windows (strongly protected ones) than they can use to talk with the prisoners in cells next to them, as some would see solitary confinment as cruel (nevermind that prison itself is cruel next to solitray confinment).
    I think given the number of convicted inmates we have lingering around that it's absolutely necessary to pack as many people in as we can to cut costs. Obviously I don't approve of in-prison crimes and such, yet small conveniences for prisons just aren't very high on my priority list. These people forfeited their rights through whatever crimes led to their incarceration, and their housing is nothing more than a continual drain on our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -In addition prisoners should not be roaming amonst each other in open squares either; all walking and physical like activities should be managed within their cells or in more closely in better monitered quarters.
    Until you've attained a certain status within the prison there really is times in which you'd be roaming around aimlessly without any type of supervision. The typical cell isn't really designed with mobility as a function, thus enlarging the cells to make them more a suitable containment area could only be accomplished through some type of restructure in the facilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Punishments should go beyond X years in prison, rather other methods of punishing should be implemented so that the criminal can learn of the wrongs that they did.
    I'm interested in hearing you expand on this. In some instances I can see reform being plausible, yet I think there are others who are simply bad apples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Drugs should be legalized, there's no damn reason why smoking a joint should have me removed from being a functioning member of society. Instead drug addicts who have problems should be sent to treatment centers, and prisons will be a lot less overcrowded.
    No argument here at all, and not for conforming to the stereotypical reasons fueling the 18-24 demographic pro-drug stances. I just see it as regulation & moderation being more profitable, and less complicated than criminalization. People are always going to seek out altered states of consciousness whether legal or illegal, thus we might as well be profiting it through taxes and distribution rather than paving the way to which organized crime can develop. The war on drugs has been a pretty big failure as a fairly large portion of our inmates are non-violent one & two time drug offenders who get caught and are forced to be lumped in with the real unsavories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -The key should be rehabilition for some or those who need it, and punishment for others. Or in some cases both. It all depends on what each individual criminal did, why they did it, etc. All verdicts should be dealt with by a case by case basis.
    Agreed, yet I think we also need to distinguish fairly quickly between who has the desire to be rehabilitated and who is just nothing more than a bad apple.

  2. #22
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Not necessarily, it all depends on whos hands they are in. If the fair, compassionate, wise, and rational are in control then all things can work out for the better. Society isn't just dependent on laws, it's dependent on individuals who are are actively willing to make crucial deisicions in it.
    I don't trust the government or the people to select wise, rational judges. If it could be done, perhaps that would be a wise way to run things. But everybody has bias, including judges. It's important to minimize the effect their bias can have as much as possible.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Legalise drugs because of prison overcrowding? Seriously?

    Sure by that logic lets take other things off the books too like sex crimes or murder, that should empty the prisons right out and things will be fine then, right?
    False equivalence. Drug use is a victimless crime. Rape and murder are not victimless crimes. However, I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference between these.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #24
    Insert Snarky Quip Here Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    False equivalence. Drug use is a victimless crime. Rape and murder are not victimless crimes. However, I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference between these.
    The point argument I could see being made against that is while drug usage may be victimless, drug trafficking at times isn't, yet even that only exists because the prohibition of drugs. With legalization that would be stifled immensely.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    The point argument I could see being made against that is while drug usage may be victimless, drug trafficking at times isn't, yet even that only exists because the prohibition of drugs. With legalization that would be stifled immensely.
    Of course, but Lark does not agree with this. He's very pro-drug war.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    The problem isn't the prison system, the problem is much larger than that. The big problem is society, and it has its root in cultural decadence and that there is too much people.
    Another big fat issue is the failing attempts at multiculturalism. Also, look at where crime is most common. It's in the cities. Humans aren't supposed to live like that.

    Earth needs less people. Much, much less people. No prisons at all, preferably. Rapists should be buried alive at crossroads, etc. That's justice.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by SuchIrony
    Prisons already have different levels of security based on the severity of the crime. I think it would be kind of difficult though to have a section for each type of crime. Too many different types of crime and even two people who committed the same sort of crime, the circumstances surrounding it are different so one person may require a higher security level than the other.
    True, although I've heard stories of people who had several DUI's being mixed in with gang bangers, although that might only be within certain states and how their prisons are run.
    Isn't this already being done for the higher level security prisons?
    Not sure, I had thought that even high security prisons still allowed prisoners to roam about easily, I suppose I should look into that.
    Do you mean to say that sentences shouldn't be so "fixed?" If a person finished their sentence but still showed no remorse for what they did, they shouldn't be set free? I agree they shouldn't be set free but how do you pratically measure the degree of which someone learned the wrongs?

    What about the opposite, someone obviously felt remorse and turned their life around, even though they haven't completed the sentence yet, should that person be set free? The latter is why the parole system exists. However, we can't just be drastically shortening peoples' sentences just because they know they did something wrong. They could just be saying that in order to get out sooner and commit more crimes. With severe crimes like premeditated murder, a shorter sentence doesn't justify the severity of the crime.
    Well, I watched this TV show once that described about different punishments in society, and in one case, in this town in California they did something different. An 18 year old who had been pressured by his peers to shoplift was caught and given an ultimatum by a judge; a week in prison or having to walk outside the store with a sign that said "I stole from this store" and be humiliated by passerby. He choose the sign punishment and it proved effective, as social disapproval can deter people from making such actions. Thus punishments like hard labor, or humiliation, or other things can deter people better than sitting around in a prison being of no use to society for a long amount of time.
    Also, if a person shows remorse for what they did and has proven that they won't commit the same action again, then I think they should be set free; keeping them locked up doesn't really serve to do much of anything productive. As for the possibility of the criminal lying their way out, I would suggest running the criminal through a MRI and measuring brain activity during an interview; that way if they are lying it can be known for sure as certain parts of the brain can reveal when a person lies.
    Yes to a combination of rehabilitation and punishment. Isn't this already being done? There's drug treatment and prisons have work and education programs so that when the prisoner gets out its easier to become a productive member of society.
    I was under the pretense that this part of the system was out of balance or didn't work as well, although perhaps I should look into the greater details of it instead.
    Prisoners who performed severe crimes like murder need to kept locked up and monitored closely so they are not a security threat to others. However, the way these people are treated borders on inhumane sometimes. Some of them have almost no contact with other people and they are close to being sensory deprived for most of the day. Yes, they may have committed murder and what they did was very wrong but they are still human beings.
    I think it depend on who they murdered and why. Not all people who commit the act of murder are evil, as I know that there are instances where murder, both in self defense or deliberate, can be justified.
    Originally posted by Elfboy
    what's wrong with it is it's too subjective. the law needs to be clearly cause and effect or it can be twisted for all kinds of sick purposes. granted, if everyone was an NF, it would probably work, but with all the other evil types (just kidding lol) out their it would be impractical
    But don't judges already view important circumstances during cases? I mean complete absolution to the law can have just as many negative consequences as subjective decision making by the courts.
    Originally posted by Little Sticks
    Society as a whole doesn't care about those in prison. That's why they get sent to prison! If you really want to change things, you have to first change the moral disgust and apathy society feels for people like that. Otherwise you are just dealing with and lessening the symptoms.
    This is very true, well at least to some extent. I know that many law abiding people consider themselves elitist compared to criminals, as though obedience to the law were a holy virtue and that criminals of all sorts should be made to suffer. But I for one hate such attitudes of the lawful, as it makes them as monstrous as some of the criminals in jail anyway.
    Originally posted by Lark
    Legalise drugs because of prison overcrowding? Seriously?

    Sure by that logic lets take other things off the books too like sex crimes or murder, that should empty the prisons right out and things will be fine then, right?
    Smoking pot doesn't ruin or hurt the lives of others. I don't know how the hell you can compare doing drugs to murder or rape, they are acts of completely different calibers.
    Originally posted by Stigmata
    Theoretically, that could probably be a good idea, yet it comes off extremely idealistic. How would this be implemented? Allocate tax funds toward the building of new prisons? Continue using existing facilities, yet transfer prisoners based on crime to a different location? Despite whatever process would be used, all of them would take time and resources, and certainly wouldn't be cost efficient. Even despite those, what of value would really be gained through segregating and organizing them based upon crimes? I think the current tiered penal system works just fine without the whole process becoming convoluted.
    I'd say whatever way proves to work the best, even if costs a lot though, it just means some higher taxes and all. Although I offered this idea mostly to try and end prison violence and rape.
    I think given the number of convicted inmates we have lingering around that it's absolutely necessary to pack as many people in as we can to cut costs. Obviously I don't approve of in-prison crimes and such, yet small conveniences for prisons just aren't very high on my priority list. These people forfeited their rights through whatever crimes led to their incarceration, and their housing is nothing more than a continual drain on our society.
    I disagree with that, I don't think that people who commit DUI's with suspended licenses should be forced to sleep, eat, and use the bathroom next to sociopathic murderers. It some extra money needs to be spent to keep such inhumane living standards from occurring then I'm all for it.
    Until you've attained a certain status within the prison there really is times in which you'd be roaming around aimlessly without any type of supervision. The typical cell isn't really designed with mobility as a function, thus enlarging the cells to make them more a suitable containment area could only be accomplished through some type of restructure in the facilities.
    I'd figure that even smalls cells had some room to walk around in.
    I'm interested in hearing you expand on this. In some instances I can see reform being plausible, yet I think there are others who are simply bad apples.
    I mentioned my reasons concerning this is my previous response to SuchIrony.
    Agreed, yet I think we also need to distinguish fairly quickly between who has the desire to be rehabilitated and who is just nothing more than a bad apple.
    True.
    Originally posted by freeeekyyy
    I don't trust the government or the people to select wise, rational judges. If it could be done, perhaps that would be a wise way to run things. But everybody has bias, including judges. It's important to minimize the effect their bias can have as much as possible.
    Perhaps instead, a mix of law and judge decision making? I refuse to believe that the law itself can resolve everything, it can't. Sometimes it takes the common sense and heart of individuals to make the right choices. But if that it set evenly with the law then maybe the two can negate each other's negative sides.

  8. #28
    Member JediVulcanisim's Avatar
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    For Kicks and Grins

    Those with the death penalty receive the honor of killing their fellow inmates at the International Gladiator Arena!!! Feed 'em for a day then reap the benefit of ticket prices! For security, a small explosive placed in the brain cavity that receives data from a transmitter so that when the transmitter is out of range or is turned off the explosive goes off!
    If there's a malfunction with the transmitter or receiver. Who cares? They were death row prison inmates.

    Hey, at least they went out with a bang either way!

  9. #29
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    The criminal justice demonstrates that we as a society don't expect anything from prisoners. We don't expect them to rehabilitate, to solve their personal problems, to treat others with dignity, or even to handle their own bodily fluids in an appropriate manner. People tend to live up to the expectations others have for them.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    False equivalence. Drug use is a victimless crime. Rape and murder are not victimless crimes. However, I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference between these.
    Nawh, with that propensity for lousy rationalisation I'd suspect your expectation would be such.

    Actions have consequences, including drug use. Its why people dont elect to move into that house beside the crack house or meth lab and move into the one beside the police station instead. Go figure.

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