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  1. #11
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    And what's wrong with taking deisicions of justice into our own hands rather than the law? The law is already a construct of our own making, yet it is not perfect and there are specific situations and circumstances that beg the ability of people to rationalize things on the spot rather than blindly do whatever the law says. It requires though people of the utmost fairness, intelligence, and skillfulness, but it can be done.
    Because if you take things into your own hands, it's not controlled. There's no order in that. Society falls apart.
    You lose.

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  2. #12
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    Originally posted by freeeekyyy
    Because if you take things into your own hands, it's not controlled. There's no order in that. Society falls apart.
    Not necessarily, it all depends on whos hands they are in. If the fair, compassionate, wise, and rational are in control then all things can work out for the better. Society isn't just dependent on laws, it's dependent on individuals who are are actively willing to make crucial deisicions in it.

  3. #13
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    Originally posted by Ignite
    They don't call you Idealist for nothing! :P
    Well of Course!

  4. #14
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    It's fairly common knowledge that the prison system is broken as shit. So I offer various ideas on how prison should be managed and operated.

    -Prison should be set in more distinct levels, that is there should be different prisons, or rather different sections of prisons should be resevered for different kinds of prisoners. For example have sections of prison for rapists, another section for those who murder out of passion, another for those who pre-meditate murder, another for drug related crims, etc.
    Prisons already have different levels of security based on the severity of the crime. I think it would be kind of difficult though to have a section for each type of crime. Too many different types of crime and even two people who committed the same sort of crime, the circumstances surrounding it are different so one person may require a higher security level than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Prisoners should not be grouped in the same rooms with each other. Prison riots and prison rape, along with people getting killed in prison, are a serious problem. Therefore each prisoner should have one cell to themselves. They should also have windows (strongly protected ones) than they can use to talk with the prisoners in cells next to them, as some would see solitary confinment as cruel (nevermind that prison itself is cruel next to solitray confinment).
    completely agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -In addition prisoners should not be roaming amonst each other in open squares either; all walking and physical like activities should be managed within their cells or in more closely in better monitered quarters.
    Isn't this already being done for the higher level security prisons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Punishments should go beyond X years in prison, rather other methods of punishing should be implemented so that the criminal can learn of the wrongs that they did.
    Do you mean to say that sentences shouldn't be so "fixed?" If a person finished their sentence but still showed no remorse for what they did, they shouldn't be set free? I agree they shouldn't be set free but how do you pratically measure the degree of which someone learned the wrongs?

    What about the opposite, someone obviously felt remorse and turned their life around, even though they haven't completed the sentence yet, should that person be set free? The latter is why the parole system exists. However, we can't just be drastically shortening peoples' sentences just because they know they did something wrong. They could just be saying that in order to get out sooner and commit more crimes. With severe crimes like premeditated murder, a shorter sentence doesn't justify the severity of the crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Drugs should be legalized, there's no damn reason why smoking a joint should have me removed from being a functioning member of society. Instead drug addicts who have problems should be sent to treatment centers, and prisons will be a lot less overcrowded.
    Completely agree. In addition, if prisons are less overcrowded, then prisoners can have their own cell, increasing their safety. People shouldn't go to prison for using drugs. Just the people who sell them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -The key should be rehabilition for some or those who need it, and punishment for others. Or in some cases both. It all depends on what each individual criminal did, why they did it, etc. All verdicts should be dealt with by a case by case basis.
    Yes to a combination of rehabilitation and punishment. Isn't this already being done? There's drug treatment and prisons have work and education programs so that when the prisoner gets out its easier to become a productive member of society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    If anyone else has any ideas on how to make a better prison please feel free to share. The goal to this debate is to try and create something better than what we have currently.
    Prisoners who performed severe crimes like murder need to kept locked up and monitored closely so they are not a security threat to others. However, the way these people are treated borders on inhumane sometimes. Some of them have almost no contact with other people and they are close to being sensory deprived for most of the day. Yes, they may have committed murder and what they did was very wrong but they are still human beings.
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  5. #15
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    And what's wrong with taking deisicions of justice into our own hands rather than the law? The law is already a construct of our own making, yet it is not perfect and there are specific situations and circumstances that beg the ability of people to rationalize things on the spot rather than blindly do whatever the law says. It requires though people of the utmost fairness, intelligence, and skillfulness, but it can be done.
    what's wrong with it is it's too subjective. the law needs to be clearly cause and effect or it can be twisted for all kinds of sick purposes. granted, if everyone was an NF, it would probably work, but with all the other evil types (just kidding lol) out their it would be impractical

  6. #16
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    here's a politically incorrect idea temporary enslavement
    rather than being stuck in a musty old jail cell, prisoners can opt for temporary enslavement
    1) the process would be strictly voluntary
    2) slaves would be sold to potential buyers at a premium
    3) potential uses include housework, manual labor and other activities
    4) the slaves would be confined to the master's place of residence
    5) the master would sign a waver agreeing to feed the slave well and not subject him or her to abusive treatment among other things.
    6) various shock collars would be placed on the slave that the master could use as punishment or push in case the slave decided to attack him or escape
    7) each time the shock pad is set off, a signal would be sent to a government agency who's job would be to track these set offs to make sure that they are not being used excessively
    8) the slave can be returned at any time, but no refund would be available
    9) slavery would be temporary. once their time is served, they're free to go
    10) only non violent inmates would be eligable for the temp-slave program

    potential benefits
    1) prisoners adding some sort of economic value to society
    2) the government would make money
    3) jail sells would be less crowded
    4) more sanitary conditions for criminals

    potential problematic areas
    1) treatment of slaves would be very hard to monitor and potential abuses are wontan
    2) high probability of slave revolting and attacking his master

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The two biggest problems with the penal system are the same problems we have with most systems, a lack of transparency and accountability. Fix those problems and a lot of other problems will fix themselves.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Society as a whole doesn't care about those in prison. That's why they get sent to prison! If you really want to change things, you have to first change the moral disgust and apathy society feels for people like that. Otherwise you are just dealing with and lessening the symptoms.

    But nobody ever listens to me.

    TL;DR or I'm batshit insane, right?

    Sure, why not, sounds good.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Legalise drugs because of prison overcrowding? Seriously?

    Sure by that logic lets take other things off the books too like sex crimes or murder, that should empty the prisons right out and things will be fine then, right?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Society as a whole doesn't care about those in prison. That's why they get sent to prison! If you really want to change things, you have to first change the moral disgust and apathy society feels for people like that. Otherwise you are just dealing with and lessening the symptoms.

    But nobody ever listens to me.

    TL;DR or I'm batshit insane, right?

    Sure, why not, sounds good.
    I reckon the converse is true actually, if there was a greater degree of disgust there'd be no crime to begin with, similarly if people were genuinely apathetic or forgot about people who were locked up perhaps the isolation would have an impact too.

    The reality is there's a lot of tolerance for criminal behaviour, for anti-social behaviour, for selfish behaviour, for plain rude behaviour and it all adds up and escalates eventually to some sort of crime, usually against the wrong person, someone unwilling to let it go and willing to press charges and then its a crime instead of just being an asshole.

    People dont suddenly or accidentially behave criminally, its usually a learned behaviour or a habitual behaviour, how can that sort of behaviour be learned or habitual if there's sufficient disgust to militate against it? There's a social system, family, friends, associates, peers usually, neighbours, others, who directly and indirectly support it, encourage it, some by saying its alright, some by coming back for more, some by not reacting with disgust or challenging it, challenging it properly, not mirroring it were that's possible. Even apathy would trump that arrangement but its a fact of life.

    I blame, big style, the popular moral or value ambiguity and consumer ethos, it just totally stokes any rationalisation or excuse a villain comes up with. In the past people might've thought they did wrong but on balance personally benefited more from it, now they're victims of circumstances, blameless, hell, even entitled to services at others expense and sympathy besides.

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