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  1. #41
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Well as long as the court decides in favor, I can say rightfully mine whenever I want to, no? :>
    Don't let a court decide what is and is not yours. If you want something, take it!

  2. #42
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Don't let a court decide what is and is not yours. If you want something, take it!
    If that would work, it'd be pretty cool. But reality shows that when following your advice, the court ends up taking away all that you have taken, and a little more to boot. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #43
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    There are actually two topics being discussed here, rather than just one, and it's muddying the waters a bit. The main topic, whether or not convicted felons should be second class citizens, is being overshadowed by the question of whether or not people who are released from prison are rehabilitated. Or, to put it another way, is the prison system systematically failing to rehabilitate prisoners while they are incarcerated.

    It's a bit of a strange question to be asking, since the prison system isn't really designed to rehabilitate. To justify continued removal of rights after a person has completed their prison sentence by saying that a punitive system did not rehabilitate them is absurd. Either it is the system's job to rehabilitate them, in which case they cannot be held responsible for the apparent systemic failures, or it is not and they should be allowed reasonable opportunities for future success.

    While it's nice and easy to hold people fully accountable while turning around and removing opportunities to pull themselves up, realistically this type of system breeds further crime. I know if i did something wrong and was put in a box for it, I would be much less likely to try bettering myself if i knew that the closest thing I had to success in my future is asking if you would like fries with that while being perpetually denied opportunities and rights.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    If that would work, it'd be pretty cool. But reality shows that when following your advice, the court ends up taking away all that you have taken, and a little more to boot. :P
    There are lots of ways to take stuff without risking anything. For example, last night I wanted a hamburger. There are probably 1,001 ways to take one, but the method I used is among the best (for me, anyway). How a person goes about obtaining what they want speaks volumes about the character, and this is why we have fine correctional institutions in the first place. Improper technique is not only inefficient, but also harmful to others (to say nothing of the perpetrator's perpetual punishment in the pen and in public following appeals and parole and all of that). So, when I say "take it", I presume that the individual will conduct themselves using proper technique. The hamburger for example, was obtained when I ordered (and I stress the word ordered) it from the waitress, like a boss. And today, I am not in trouble, but instead all parties are satisfied. I even skipped breakfast and lunch today, the burger is still paying off...

    So, if you want something, take it using the best possible means to reach the least punitive end. Risk vs reward, all that is part of the decision-making process.

  5. #45
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Although that reasoning could be used as a deterrent, not all felons plot thier crimes beforehand; emotions and unique situations are important to consider as well, since they shouldn't be held against a felon as negatively as pre-meditated stuff.
    Only
    1: If your/someone's life is in danger.
    2: If someone you know who's life is in danger.

    And like Curator said, it's the difference between murder and manslaughter.

    Think of this scenario. Some guy is having a hard day. He decides to drink his hardships away. Drunk, he decides to drive back home. Midway home, he doesn't notice a red light and slams into the car in front of him... killing someone who would of been well otherwise.

    The bottom line? He killed someone without thinking about the cost implications of his action. Pre-meditated or not, he could of prevented it. He could of prevented the car crash that kills another person who had nothing to do with this person's ill decision to drink and drive. Because of it a persons life is payed because of his choice. Because of this person's ill decision, there are lives affected.

    Can he change? Possibly.

    Will the scars this person created ever disappear? No.

    You live with it just like the people affected live with it. It is "unfair" that these people get treated like they may be second class citizens, but it is also unfair to those affected by his actions to be let off so easily.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeru View Post

    You live with it just like the people affected live with it. It is "unfair" that these people get treated like they may be second class citizens, but it is also unfair to those affected by his actions to be let off so easily.
    Still, it seems a bit sadistic to make the offender suffer because the affected victims demand suffering. The idea is to rehabilitate, not inflict more damage on the citizenry (which includes both victims and perpetrators).

  7. #47
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Well as long as the court decides in favor, I can say rightfully mine whenever I want to, no? :>

    Next friday another case will come to the conclusion, at best the company will be 30k euro and a 10k/month contract for 2 years richer. Still have to wait for the ruling, but things look good. And I can say I have been anything but compassionate in preparing that case. :P

    I must say the judge was amazing though. He asked all the right questions, and the other party got backed in the corner pretty badly. He was really on top of his game. I've seen this not being the case too many times, I'm glad this one is actually competent.

    Ofcourse, as the case is mostly about semantics (vague contracts and correspendance), it is also not unthinkable he will decide on some middle road. But for now, it seems to be leaning towards us.
    Good times, let's try to out-explicit a Ti dom!! What you meant was "legally yours" which might be different from "rightfully yours".

  8. #48
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    A convicted felon's just a felon that's unlucky or dumb enough to get caught, maybe they set their sights too low, lots of people running the banks, for instance behind the collapse of leyman-sacks or Eron, who seem pretty felonious to me but anyway.

    To be honest I dont trust a lot of people, definitely dont automatically trust strangers, wouldnt treat felons any different or better, whether they served time or not, and I'd not go out of my way to have one as a neighbour, car share, invite into my home, have dinner with, do a favour to/for or anything else.

    I tend to think that a lot of the well intentioned forgiving mindsets, whatever their source (its not just the college or university "prison abolitionists", kindly liberals or Christians, Johnny Cash sings about the prisoners who're victims of the time and have long since paid for their crimes and I wouldnt characterise him as a naive liberal or left-winger) is ill conceived. A lot of the time it just results in people being unwary.

  9. #49
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I tend to think that a lot of the well intentioned forgiving mindsets, whatever their source (its not just the college or university "prison abolitionists", kindly liberals or Christians, Johnny Cash sings about the prisoners who're victims of the time and have long since paid for their crimes and I wouldnt characterise him as a naive liberal or left-winger) is ill conceived. A lot of the time it just results in people being unwary.
    Our prison system is overcrowded, that is what. Instead of finding a solution, we just stick every-single-"criminal" whether it be theft or murder into this building and say "stay there with these other people."

    Hell, my state pays more to upheld each prisoner than they are willing to fund each student for the public colleges. If they were willing to grant that 50k to students like they use on those prisoners, most of us students wouldn't need to scramble for money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Still, it seems a bit sadistic to make the offender suffer because the affected victims demand suffering. The idea is to rehabilitate, not inflict more damage on the citizenry (which includes both victims and perpetrators).
    Rehabilitation takes time, sometimes even a lifetime. I am sure most people won't magically forgive the offender for what has transpired. Sometimes the offender don't even know who their victims are and would care less about the victims.

    Do I think there should be a system to get the victims and offender (note the order I placed it in) back into some kind of shape? Yes. Do I think the offender should be let off that easily? No.

  10. #50
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    This comes from people having belief in their own superiority. "I'd never do x. People who do x are sick, even though I've done y and z, that's not as bad because it isn't x." "I may be bad, but look at those other people." If the concern is that when a person's done their time, they still won't have changed, then perhaps they need to do more time. They do not need to be treated like they're still criminals when they've paid their debts.
    You lose.

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