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  1. #31
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I do think that prisoners and ex-criminals should have the same right to vote as every other US citizen. Just because you did something society sees as reprehensible doesn't mean you're ignorant of politics or don't know a good political candidate from a bad one. A vote from a criminal isn't going to harm society, unless their crime was voter fraud or something like that.
    Prisoners have willfully forfeited the right to vote through their actions, the same way they have forfeited their right to liberty and property (in the case of fines). More practically, prisoners could dominate politics in small towns where prisons are located. I think that some ex-cons should have the right to vote, but not all-just like some but not all ex-cons should have the right to own guns.

  2. #32
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Thinking about this a bit more, there are preset terms for different types of convictions. When considering the rehab aspect, how is it possible that everyone could be rehabbed within this set length of time, especially when some get out much, much earlier for short-term good behaviour?

    Perhaps members are confusing a viable rehab system and term served.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    Eh, I think given the nature of some of the crimes that those responses are somewhat warranted. The big misconception here is that incarceration equates directly to rehabilitation, which isn't necessarily true at all. I have a hard time really sympathizing with the ex-convicts in that they were granted the same rights as everyone else and made a conscious effort through their actions to squander them, and while they may be somewhat ostracized from society upon release, it's all a harsh lesson in accountability. If I knew the penal system took more measures to reforming these people, rather than just containing them like wild animals for a fixed amount of time, perhaps I would view it differently.

    As far as employment opportunities go, especially given how competitive the job market is these days, you're always taking a risk with someone whenever you give them any type of position, so I don't understand the motivation to increase that risk with someone who was recently incarcerated. Sure, they served there time and that's all fine and great, but statistically speaking they're more prone to deviate and reject the norms of society that someone who hasn't served time. A sex offender can parade around all he wants about how he's reformed now, but I still wouldn't feel comfortable knowing he was working in a day-care center.

  4. #34
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    I have a hard time really sympathizing with the ex-convicts in that they were granted the same rights as everyone else and made a conscious effort through their actions to squander them, and while they may be somewhat ostracized from society upon release, it's all a harsh lesson in accountability.
    The thing is, I don't see it as a question of sympathy so much as a question of wasted resources and risk.

    By having these convicts out on the streets and ostracized from society, unable to operate within it... they will likely turn back to crime. Basically, the way we do things now, while it may teach accountability, usually just causes convicts to have a chance to re-offend.

    I think that perhaps convicts shouldn't be allowed out of prison until they find a job, or something like that. I just think that putting someone in a situation where they're likely to re-offend is stupid... either keep them in prison, or put them to use, or... something. Don't just let them go "free."

    I mean, I guess as harsh as it sounds, perhaps it just means we need to make more liberal use of the death penalty and life in prison, and get rid of parole while we're at it. I mean, if the situation for ex-cons is so hopeless, maybe there shouldn't be any on the streets.

    People who commit crimes serious enough to be put on their record and kept from employment, shouldn't be let out of prison ever. We could retain time-based sentences for more minor crimes, however, but that's it.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The thing is, I don't see it as a question of sympathy so much as a question of wasted resources and risk.

    By having these convicts out on the streets and ostracized from society, unable to operate within it... they will likely turn back to crime. Basically, the way we do things now, while it may teach accountability, usually just causes convicts to have a chance to re-offend.
    While I understand your point, I think that returning to a life of crime after serving a sentence is a problem existing within the ex-con themselves rather then the system. The fact that they could ever even think of that again as a viable alternative is something I find unsettling. Just because opportunity isn't bursting through your front door, doesn't mean crime is somehow acceptable based upon circumstance. I can agree that not releasing them until they find some type of employment may be a good idea, but what happens in the event they lose that job? Do they go back to prevent them from re-offending? They'd pretty much be earning a privileged that most freed people don't have. If they can't help re-offending without some system holding their hands throughout the entire process, perhaps they shouldn't be released. We shouldn't have to go to such extreme lengths to save them from themselves.

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by Oberon
    I think you should do it, actually. Come up with a business model and a plan, and go shopping for venture capital.
    Oh I don't have the knowledge or ambition to run a company (not now anyway), although I may pistch the idea to a compassionate business man.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Oh I don't have the knowledge or ambition to run a company (not now anyway), although I may pistch the idea to a compassionate business man.
    So you have neither the smarts nor the inclination to start or run a company, and yet you've got the chutzpah to say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Those who have gone to prison have served their sentence and have taken their punishment. They shouldn't have to be treated like scum once they are released, nor should business be allowed to deny them jobs because of it.
    If you aren't smart enough or motivated enough (by your own admission) to run a company, why in God's name should a company or a society follow your helpful advice? What makes YOU think that this prescription of yours is worth a nickel?

  8. #38
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    a compassionate business man.
    Compassionate is a pretty big word, but as far as business goes, there are areas that can benefit from being compassionate, and there are areas where compassion is better left at home. Probably all business men have the ability for compassion, but a truely all round compassionate man, probably wouldn't do well in business. At least, I do not know of such a case ever existing. If it does, I'd be quite interested in how he deals with many of the financial problems a business man faces. I do know that in my line of business. There are times you have to be rockhard and push the envelope to the limit to get what is rightfully yours.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #39
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Whoah, "rightfully yours" opens up a big perception can of worms!

  10. #40
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Whoah, "rightfully yours" opens up a big perception can of worms!
    Well as long as the court decides in favor, I can say rightfully mine whenever I want to, no? :>

    Next friday another case will come to the conclusion, at best the company will be 30k euro and a 10k/month contract for 2 years richer. Still have to wait for the ruling, but things look good. And I can say I have been anything but compassionate in preparing that case. :P

    I must say the judge was amazing though. He asked all the right questions, and the other party got backed in the corner pretty badly. He was really on top of his game. I've seen this not being the case too many times, I'm glad this one is actually competent.

    Ofcourse, as the case is mostly about semantics (vague contracts and correspendance), it is also not unthinkable he will decide on some middle road. But for now, it seems to be leaning towards us.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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