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  1. #21
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    I think part of the problem is that when hiring someone, or renting them an apartment, or whatever it may be.. you can't force them to go into the details of their crime can you? Isn't it unethical to force this info? So you can give the person an opportunity to explain the conviction.. but then you are trusting they will tell the truth. I dont think that being skeptical of someone you don't know with a criminal records is really unfair, its self preserving in a way. From a business standpoint.. why would you take a risk on someone with a indisputable track record of law breaking when you could hire someone without it?

    Now there is something I think is TOTAL bullshit.. and its sexual conduct with a minor when parties are close in age. My little brother has a friend that is 18.. dated his gf for a year.. (she is 16) and her family decided to press charges on him for sexual conduct with a minor. He must have had a terrible public defender, i dunno.. but the poor kid was convicted and sentenced to jail for 30 days. For the rest of his life he will have to register as a sexual predator. He will have to disclose this on most applications, it will come up on every background check.. this is something that has MAJOR effects on the rest of his life. He will never be able to work in education, he will never be able to adopt, not to mention his neighbors can pull up his mugshot on the web wherever he lives.. FOREVER. Terrible.
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  2. #22
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Now there is something I think is TOTAL bullshit.. and its sexual conduct with a minor when parties are close in age. My little brother has a friend that is 18.. dated his gf for a year.. (she is 16) and her family decided to press charges on him for sexual conduct with a minor. He must have had a terrible public defender, i dunno.. but the poor kid was convicted and sentenced to jail for 30 days. For the rest of his life he will have to register as a sexual predator. He will have to disclose this on most applications, it will come up on every background check.. this is something that has MAJOR effects on the rest of his life. He will never be able to work in education, he will never be able to adopt, not to mention his neighbors can pull up his mugshot on the web wherever he lives.. FOREVER. Terrible.
    They should issue pardons for specific cases like this. (Or at least add proper context to the conviction).
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #23
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    We all know that once you get out of prison for your crimes that life is going to and will be a difficult piece of shit. Being released with little means to support oneselve is one thing, but a major problem is that society will basically stigmatize you for your life. Business will deny you jobs, you can't vote, etc.

    But why should it be this way?

    Those who have gone to prison have served their sentence and have taken their punishment. They shouldn't have to be treated like scum once they are released, nor should business be allowed to deny them jobs because of it.
    I agree that there needs to be better services in place to rehabilitate criminals who have finished their sentence. By services, I mean organizations that will hire ex-cons and rental companies that will rent to ex-cons. I do understand why many companies won't hire ex-cons and for very good reason. They are afraid they may steal, commit fraud, or do something violent. On the other hand, I think there are types of work ex-cons could do that would minimize such threats. It depends on the crime the person committed and the severity of it.

    Similar reasoning can be applied for why so many rental companies won't rent out to criminals. They're afraid the apartment complex won't be as safe or the person isn't going to pay the rent on time. Yet, if the ex-con can't find a decent place to live, he or she ends up on the streets, which means a greater likelihood of committing another crime just to meet basic needs. So it ends up being a vicious cycle one cannot easily get out of. Perhaps a solution would be to have more housing options for ex-convicts where there is a high level of security measures in place. Of course all these social services cost money and not everyone is going to want their tax dollars going here.

    It's a real problem with no easy solution.

    I do think that prisoners and ex-criminals should have the same right to vote as every other US citizen. Just because you did something society sees as reprehensible doesn't mean you're ignorant of politics or don't know a good political candidate from a bad one. A vote from a criminal isn't going to harm society, unless their crime was voter fraud or something like that.
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  4. #24
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    There are stigmas for everything in life. There are things that you're taught will have everlasting impacts on your life, and make it harder on you for the rest of it if you so choose to go down that path. Not heeding the words of the wise is something all young people do, and that some adults do.

    Is it fair to say when a felon makes a decision like that, they've been warned long ago the consequences of that decision? Is it fair to say that, in making such a decision anyways, they have to bear the weight of it the rest of their lives? I don't think people can put a time-frame on repenting, and introspection. X years or Z hours of community service doesn't magically create those things.. there is no way for us as citizens to tell if people truly have turned away from a life like that. The "I had it hard in life" approach just doesn't fly with me. Tough shit, everyone has it hard, and not everyone is in jail as a result.

    With that said.. I have felons for friends. One of my mentors in high school spent massive amounts of time in jail. They have it hard, trying to find their place in the world, but eventually they find one. I don't think the word 'felon' should automatically elicit a reaction, but I do think time, honesty, and hard work are the only things that will ever lift that person out of that stigma. someone who committed a crime a month ago is a lot scarier than someone who committed the same crime 20 years ago. Also, it pains me that people get stuck in bullshit situations where the 'crimes' are classified in with other ones that don't mean as much. With the situation listed above, I don't think things like that should be in the same category as a predator. It should be a different category altogether.

    It is a tricky question.. and I know there are programs in my city that help place felons into jobs and fight for them to get jobs since employers have been a bit too stingy in late years. but I don't know the exact answer to the question. I can see both sides.. and don't have a way to make them link together.

    I do agree with some of the terms.. Felons not being allowed to own guns, or other such things. I don't know about much more outside of that. If you do a crime, just know you'll be carrying that crime on your shoulders the rest of your life. That's just the way it is. Hopefully it'll be bad enough that people won't commit crimes.
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  5. #25
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Hmm... what do you think of the idea of using convicts who have committed serious crimes as slave laborers, and never letting them out of custody?
    I'm against it, naturally... but what's all this "we should" do this and "we should" do that? Like it's some sort of command economy? Employers who want to employ convicted felons do so. Others do not. I'm against coercing businesses into hiring people they don't trust.

    If you want to fix something, fix a "justice" system that puts people and sometimes the wrong people into jail for stupid reasons in the first place. Put an end to the idiotic "War on Drugs" and you'll fix half of it right there.

    About the felons themselves... life is just hard if you've been to jail. The moral of the story is do whatever you can to avoid going to jail.

  6. #26
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Until there's a way to read minds and hearts, pragmatically speaking, is the risk of employment, worth the return? Say you work in the finance and investment industry. Would you employ someone who's committed embezzlement? I wouldn't since it's my responsibility to ensure that other people's money is safeguarded since they're trusting me with it. But if I managed a factory and their job entailed being part of an assembly line, then yes I would hire, as long as they're qualified to do the job.

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by Oberon
    Well, when you're managing your own company, you'll know who to seek out and hire.
    Actually, if I ran my own company, I would hire only ex-cons and felons, or just generally cool yet odd people. I'd have the best work team in the world

    Originally posted by Fluffywolf
    I know of sevaral businessmen who hire ex-cons because it gives them a new start. One of them helped my high school sweetheart's dad after he got out for cocaine distribution. Not everyone who does time is bad or evil...
    Then there either need to be more businesses like these, or rules against businesses being able to discrimante against criminals.

  8. #28
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    I see this type of behaviour as damaging, both to convicted felons and society as a whole. It's easy to see why it's damaging to the felons; any wrench that is thrown into the mix makes it that much harder for them to rehabilitate, should they choose to. This makes it more likely that they will make further bad choices that will be harmful to them and their families. However, the tough on crime crowd has no sympathy for people who are convicted of crimes, so its more productive to look at why this is harmful to society.

    Arguably, the reason for disclosure and stigmatization of previous crimes is to prevent innocent people from being further victimized (although this doesn't explain why people should be prevented from voting - this strikes me as an appallingly petty and antagonistic attack on these individuals). It is harmful to society because people without options don't just pick up a minimum wage job and go about their lives. They expend resources through criminal activities, an increased need for monitoring, and use of social services like welfare. They become angry and frustrated by their situation. When faced with a hopeless situation, it is human nature for people to lash out.

    If the end goal is to prevent future crime rather than to simply punish people, then we as a society have to offer people more options rather than less. It doesn't really matter if they 'deserve' these opportunities or not, because the end result is a net gain for everyone.

    The obvious argument against this is that some people simply are not capable of becoming productive members of society, and I have no doubt that this is true. But I see this as a reason for reforming the court and prison system, rather than one for perpetually punishing everyone who once committed crimes.

  9. #29
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    We all know that once you get out of prison for your crimes that life is going to and will be a difficult piece of shit. Being released with little means to support oneselve is one thing, but a major problem is that society will basically stigmatize you for your life. Business will deny you jobs, you can't vote, etc.

    But why should it be this way?

    Those who have gone to prison have served their sentence and have taken their punishment. They shouldn't have to be treated like scum once they are released, nor should business be allowed to deny them jobs because of it.

    (And on a related note: if an felon who has been released from prison can't find a job becuase of his stigma as a felon, then the chances that he will turn to crime to keep himself alive is very likely).
    I agree with most of this, but I think a business should be able to hire whomever it wants and that that's not anyone else's business. that being said, I think excluding convicted fellons from potential hire is extremely economically disadvantageous.

  10. #30
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Actually, if I ran my own company, I would hire only ex-cons and felons, or just generally cool yet odd people. I'd have the best work team in the world
    I think you should do it, actually. Come up with a business model and a plan, and go shopping for venture capital.

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