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  1. #11
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Serving their punishment means they go to jail for X years. Why should they be subject to anything more? And if a rapist is getting less time than someone who kills an animal then the system is clearly broken.

    Uh, you do know the danger of allowing punishment to lay indirectly in the hands of people who base their decisions purely on subjectivity right? Should people really be punished for their entire lives for such things?
    The system IS broken

    And that is asking if the convicted felon should of committed the crime in the first place. These people SHOULD know that if they are going to commit a crime like murder or rape, they are going to get listed.

    And just like Aleksei, the causes for those crimes (as a person killing to defend one self is different from killing... just for killing) should be put into consideration.

    EDITED

  2. #12
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    Originally posted by Takeru
    The system IS broken
    Well that is true. But I'm talking about the ethical matters of how we should treat covicted prisoners released from jail, regardless og how the system is run.

    And that is asking if the convicted felon should of committed the crime in the first place. These people SHOULD know that if they are going to commit a crime like murder or rape, they are going to get listed.
    Although that reasoning could be used as a deterrent, not all felons plot thier crimes beforehand; emotions and unique situations are important to consider as well, since they shouldn't be held against a felon as negatively as pre-meditated stuff.

  3. #13
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    But even if their felony was a harsh and or brutal crime, wouldn't it be unfair to eternally judge them for that? Why's a convicted drug dealer unable to work a pharmcay if he has tekn his punishment and become a productive member of society? Espcially considering that he could be a good candidte for the job if he has the knowledge.
    Uh no, its not unfair to eternally judge them for that, it takes an extremely sick individual to commit extremely violent crimes, they do not get better from hanging out in a cage, such people have a 100% re-offense rate after 10 years, our current system does not work on rehabilitation, and even if it did, I do not believe it would help people who have already developed a strong pattern of such deviant behaviors, not if they where to concentrate on helping and rehabilitating teens then we may actually be able to get some where! but this isnt a thread on rehabilitation so I will stick to the subject at hand,lol.

    A convicted drug dealer (not just some petty guy with a little pot) but a guy who was selling a bunch of various drugs, has a proven history, the chances of rehabilitation are incredibly low, and the owners of the pharmacy have the right to not endanger their business, their licenses, their livelihood, and the people they service, by hiring such a felon... its like handing a fat kid the keys to a candy store (I was a fat kid, and im tellin ya, if you wanna keep your candy store intact, giving me the keys would not have been a good idea, hehehehe)

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Serving their punishment means they go to jail for X years. Why should they be subject to anything more? And if a rapist is getting less time than someone who kills an animal then the system is clearly broken.
    The system IS broken, has been for a long time, there are repeat admitted pedophiles that get off with probation, then on top of that mentally disturbed children and teenagers, who need help to keep such destructive patterns from gettign set in stone more or less, are ignored, filed away till they turn 18, then let out into the normal system... there are a few programs that focus on rehabilitation, but they are very small and underfunded, so most kids dont get the chance to go through such programs... Jail doesnt rehabilitate people, it just creates better criminals...

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Uh, you do know the danger of allowing punishment to lay indirectly in the hands of people who base thier desicions purely on subjectivity right? Should people really be punished for their entire lives for such things?
    every law we have is based on subjective opinion, there is not, nor will there ever be, anyone who is capable of basing laws on complete objectivity, and yes, some people SHOULD be punished their entire lives for some crimes, because in some cases their victims feel the effects of the crime for their entire life... in a perfect world we could some how make the punishment fit the crime, make it to where they could feel all of the pain and torment they put their victims through... unfortunately that is not possible, and most likely never will be, so we can only do what we can do... and try our best to keep them from hurting others again.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Although that reasoning could be used as a deterrent, not all felons plot thier crimes beforehand; emotions and unique situations are important to consider as well, since they shouldn't be held against a felon as negatively as pre-meditated stuff.

    that IS taken into account, its the difference between murder and manslaughter.
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  4. #14
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    Originally posted by Curator
    Uh no, its not unfair to eternally judge them for that, it takes an extremely sick individual to commit extremely violent crimes, they do not get better from hanging out in a cage, such people have a 100% re-offense rate after 10 years, our current system does not work on rehabilitation, and even if it did, I do not believe it would help people who have already developed a strong pattern of such deviant behaviors, not if they where to concentrate on helping and rehabilitating teens then we may actually be able to get some where!
    If that is the case then why not sentence them to death? Or hell considering that they're that evil they'll probably have life in prison anyway. My argument is based off the notion of a prison system that works (even if in real life that isn't the case), that punishment should rely solely on the system, or at least as much as possible.

    but this isnt a thread on rehabilitation so I will stick to the subject at hand,lol.
    I may create a similar thread to that later, concerning how we should fix and reconstruct the prison system.

    A convicted drug dealer (not just some petty guy with a little pot) but a guy who was selling a bunch of various drugs, has a proven history, the chances of rehabilitation are incredibly low, and the owners of the pharmacy have the right to not endanger their business, their licenses, their livelihood, and the people they service, by hiring such a felon... its like handing a fat kid the keys to a candy store (I was a fat kid, and im tellin ya, if you wanna keep your candy store intact, giving me the keys would not have been a good idea, hehehehe)
    Alright, I suppose someone of that dangerous magnitutde shouldn't be working at a pharmacy, but it should also be dealt with on an individual basis, that is, how much has that individual changed ans whether or not they have proven themsleves to be trusted.

    The system IS broken, has been for a long time, there are repeat admitted pedophiles that get off with probation, then on top of that mentally disturbed children and teenagers, who need help to keep such destructive patterns from gettign set in stone more or less, are ignored, filed away till they turn 18, then let out into the normal system... there are a few programs that focus on rehabilitation, but they are very small and underfunded, so most kids dont get the chance to go through such programs... Jail doesnt rehabilitate people, it just creates better criminals...
    The the system needs to be fixed, and as I mentioned before I will create a thread on that.

    every law we have is based on subjective opinion, there is not, nor will there ever be, anyone who is capable of basing laws on complete objectivity,
    To a certain extent, I don't want to agree with that, although this brings up the entire unsolved problem of objective morality vs. moral relativism.

    and yes, some people SHOULD be punished their entire lives for some crimes, because in some cases their victims feel the effects of the crime for their entire life... in a perfect world we could some how make the punishment fit the crime, make it to where they could feel all of the pain and torment they put their victims through... unfortunately that is not possible, and most likely never will be, so we can only do what we can do... and try our best to keep them from hurting others again.
    Yes, that is why we have the death senetence and life in prison.

  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Well, I do have to agree that it's impractical to make life so difficult on ex-cons after they get out of prison, and expect them not to re-offend. If they can't get a job, they pretty much have to turn back to crime. In prison, that's all they're exposed to and it's likely all they knew before going anyway.

    The question is how to deal with it. Should we trust these people more than we do, give them a longer leash? Or should we just decide that people who commit serious crimes shouldn't be allowed out of prison in the first place?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Those who have gone to prison have served their sentence and have taken their punishment. They shouldn't have to be treated like scum once they are released, nor should business be allowed to deny them jobs because of it.

    (And on a related note: if an felon who has been released from prison can't find a job becuase of his stigma as a felon, then the chances that he will turn to crime to keep himself alive is very likely).
    Well, when you're managing your own company, you'll know who to seek out and hire.

  7. #17
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Hmm... what do you think of the idea of using convicts who have committed serious crimes as slave laborers, and never letting them out of custody?

  8. #18
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    As per topic, I believe they should unless they done something minor with no emotional or personal damage done to victims.

    I mean, on one hand, I totally understand that someone who has been previously convicted, has the ability to become a good and proper citizen and turn around for the better, being a good human being once his/her sentence is done. This is not unthinkable.

    But on the other hand, people know that if you break the law, you'll be fucked for life. You do your sentence, and then carry your record with you for the rest of your life, they know this. But still while risking their entire future, they still broke the law.

    So I say, screw them. Let them carry it with them like a scar for the rest of their lives never getting the chances they would be getting if they just stayed in line.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    We all know that once you get out of prison for your crimes that life is going to and will be a difficult piece of shit. Being released with little means to support oneselve is one thing, but a major problem is that society will basically stigmatize you for your life. Business will deny you jobs, you can't vote, etc.

    But why should it be this way?

    Those who have gone to prison have served their sentence and have taken their punishment. They shouldn't have to be treated like scum once they are released, nor should business be allowed to deny them jobs because of it.

    (And on a related note: if an felon who has been released from prison can't find a job becuase of his stigma as a felon, then the chances that he will turn to crime to keep himself alive is very likely).
    I know of sevaral businessmen who hire ex-cons because it gives them a new start. One of them helped my high school sweetheart's dad after he got out for cocaine distribution. Not everyone who does time is bad or evil...

  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I've hired an ex-con because his salary was being paid by the government, he was smart, really good with figures, and his crime wasn't one that bothered me/ (fairly minor tax fraud conviction, 1 year sentence). But as a businessman I can say that I didn't give a crap about giving people a new start. I did it for the benefits.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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