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  1. #71
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Germany uses Russian gas and depends on it and plans to use that instead of oil. It is an interim solution. If you are right with your pessimism about technological developement, we will have to use those fossils anyway.
    Well, the US is moving towards Gas right now as well. A lot of the buses here run on LNG. The good thing about gas, for us, is that we can get it locally... the bad thing is that producing it contaminates our water supply.

    The thing is, it seems like you're more willing to put up with the negative consequences of fossil than the negative consequences of nuclear, even though it's not clear that nuclear is worse in the long-run, because fossil definitely pollutes the air and water, while nuclear pollutes land, mostly.

    The point is that keeping your existing nuclear facilities enables you to use fewer fossil fuels as you transition into renewable energy (when you do have enough, you'll dump the remaining nuclear facilities). It just seems weird not to take advantage of that capacity, and the decision seems to be based on paranoia induced by the incident in Japan.

    Of course, I just think that fossil fuels are not going to hold out, and that it's important to move away from them... you seem to think that nuclear is so bad that we should stick with them no matter how hard it makes things.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    As for Lateralus, I don't see where hypocracy should come into play. Sure, people are afraid of a fall out. But that doesn't mean that it is irrational to consider the risks of nuclear energy and the damage nuclear waste does.
    The general public has an irrational fear of radiation due to the media. This leads to people dismissing nuclear power as an alternative rather than allowing the execution of a proper cost-benefit analysis.

    It is not emotional. And even if the decision to drop nuclear energy was emotionally driven, how would that be hypocritical? Doesn't hypocritical mean that you use two different ethical standards? How is this done here? Sorry, I can't follow your trail of thought. And there is no need to get personal with anybody.
    Yes, it is emotional. It is also irrational.

    It is hypocritical because they are not applying the same standard to all energy technologies. The problems with renewable energy sources can supposedly be solved by improving our technology. The problems with nuclear power are not allowed to be solved by improving our technology. That is the inconsistency.

    I'm not getting personal, however, I do see some overly sensitive people. Should I give you a hug or a lollipop when I show how your logic is flawed? Would that make you feel better?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #73
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You have to understand that in Germany we have for years strict regulations on the production of CO2. To us the use of fossile energy is almost "clean". In a standard power plant there are 16 processes after the burning of the coal done to the smoke gas to make it clean and the amount of CO2 in it going into the air is reduced to .01 % per kg.

    So there are already hard and strict governmental regulations to the pollution of our atmosphere. Because of that people think maybe it's safer to use all the fossile fuel up than to produce everlasting waste with nuclear energy. It's basically a sword with two edges, no solution is the right one. Yet given the current background, I'ld rather go and take the fossile solution for a time aswell. And if they shut down more plants here, they will build more coal power plants. It's a downside people who want the nuclear plants to be switched of by tomorrow dont think of

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The general public has an irrational fear of radiation due to the media. This leads to people dismissing nuclear power as an alternative rather than allowing the execution of a proper cost-benefit analysis.
    man you are classy. An irrational fear of radiation, that will be the sentence of the year to me
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The point is that keeping your existing nuclear facilities enables you to use fewer fossil fuels as you transition into renewable energy (when you do have enough, you'll dump the remaining nuclear facilities). It just seems weird not to take advantage of that capacity, and the decision seems to be based on paranoia induced by the incident in Japan.
    People, in general, have an irrational fear of radiation. They give the potential negative effects of radiation far too much weight in their internal cost-benefit analysis.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #75
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Lateralus, you are comparing apples and pears and continue the personal attacks instead of sticking to the issue.
    For the record, I was against nuclear energy years before Fukushima, all my life actually. I am familiar with most of the arguments of your side. And I agree that we need a rational cost benefit analysis. Where we differ is in the assessment of the risks and promises of both technologies and in our confidence in their potential for improvement. I consider it it more likely to get a few bugs out of the current wind/water/solar generators than to revolutionize nuclear fission in the next decade or two.

    Athenian, yes, I consider gas the smaller of two evils.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  6. #76
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Here are some statistics on "irrational fears of radiation" haha






    High level waste (HLW) is produced by nuclear reactors. It contains fission products and transuranic elements generated in the reactor core. It is highly radioactive and often thermally hot. HLW accounts for over 95% of the total radioactivity produced in the process of nuclear electricity generation. The amount of HLW worldwide is currently increasing by about 12,000 metric tons every year, which is the equivalent to about 100 double-decker buses or a two-story structure with a footprint the size of a basketball court.[17] A 1000-MWe nuclear power plant produces about 27 tonnes of spent nuclear fuel (unreprocessed) every year.[18]

    Transuranic waste (TRUW) as defined by U.S. regulations is, without regard to form or origin, waste that is contaminated with alpha-emitting transuranic radionuclides with half-lives greater than 20 years, and concentrations greater than 100 nCi/g (3.7 MBq/kg), excluding High Level Waste. Elements that have an atomic number greater than uranium are called transuranic ("beyond uranium"). Because of their long half-lives, TRUW is disposed more cautiously than either low level or intermediate level waste. In the US it arises mainly from weapons production, and consists of clothing, tools, rags, residues, debris and other items contaminated with small amounts of radioactive elements (mainly plutonium).
    Waste management

    Of particular concern in nuclear waste management are two long-lived fission products, Tc-99 (half-life 220,000 years) and I-129 (half-life 17 million years), which dominate spent fuel radioactivity after a few thousand years. The most troublesome transuranic elements in spent fuel are Np-237 (half-life two million years) and Pu-239 (half life 24,000 years).[20] Nuclear waste requires sophisticated treatment and management to successfully isolate it from interacting with the biosphere. This usually necessitates treatment, followed by a long-term management strategy involving storage, disposal or transformation of the waste into a non-toxic form.[21] Governments around the world are considering a range of waste management and disposal options, though there has been limited progress toward long-term waste management solutions.[22]


    Just go on this site, the sopurce site and watch how many sentences about the topic there are. It is totally irrational to fear radiation -.- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #77
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Athenian, yes, I consider gas the smaller of two evils.
    Gas isn't a big problem, but you also mentioned using more oil.

    I have to say I consider that unfortunate... because that means that one more country that WAS moving away from fossil fuels, is going to be moving back towards them. And that means there will be less for the US, and that means that the price of oil is going to increase faster, and we're going to be... umm, screwed, because of how dependent we all still are on it.

    Good news for you, bad news for me.

    If a lot of other countries follow suit, demand for oil could skyrocket in the face of this disaster.

  8. #78
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    There might be a minor increase in oil for a few years, but that is just one small sideeffect. The focus is on massive expansion of renewables and mostly gas as a gap filler. Strange you should focus on that one sidenote and not on the main point of the entire article. Or maybe there is some miscommunication here.

    Germany and Central Europe in general is not so much moving away from or back to fossils as it is rapidly moing towards renewables. Some say that will be for us in the 21st century what cars were in the 20th century.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  9. #79
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Gas isn't a big problem, but you also mentioned using more oil.

    I have to say I consider that unfortunate... because that means that one more country that WAS moving away from fossil fuels, is going to be moving back towards them. And that means there will be less for the US, and that means that the price of oil is going to increase faster, and we're going to be... umm, screwed, because of how dependent we all still are on it.

    Good news for you, bad news for me.
    We primarily get gas from Russia and I think that is the interims plan. People definitly do not want here to go back to a higher oil usage and the government will also not to. That would be kinda dumb, as you explained
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #80
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    That's the german energy mix:

    Erdöl: oil
    Kohle: coal
    Erdgas: gas
    Erneuerbare Energien: renewable energies
    Kernerngie: nuclear

    They have so far pursued the strategy to be depandant on one fossile fuel source for 33 % compared to the others. Think if you substract 11% for nuclear and increase renewable slightly, we'll use 33% more of coal, oil or gas. When Russia drops the price, maybe it will be more gas, but only slightly, they dont make themselves dependant

    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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