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  1. #31
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Well I do and most people over here do. It was shortly before my sixth birthday and suddenly everybody was upset and people kept talking about how you couldn't eat certain foods and how they hoped the cloud would not move over Germany. My dad was a hunter and so there was some talk about no more shooting deer and no mushrooms from the forest either. The Sendung mit der Maus, the most important children's educational tv program of the day made an extra show on nuclear power explaining to the children in simple terms what had happened. At school we read a children's novel about what a worst case scenario nuclear meltdown in Germany would look like. It is a children's book classic called The Cloud. Later at the university I had a friend from Ukraine who grew up relatively close to Chernobyl and made some very morbid jokes about it to cope. These days the name Chernobyl is used a lot again in the German media.

    Maybe it is because we were/are geographically closer, but, hell, yeah, most people here remember all too well.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #32
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    I bet that was scary. I kinda meant that as a question for Americans. Even I didn't consider the impact on Europe. Just saying, people here put things out of their mind quickly. No ones talking about Haiti or Chili anymore. If it happens on our soil the impact will last longer.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Is any of you familiar with the concept of "Peak Uranium" ?
    Uranium is not the only fissionable material.

    I think that we should stop looking at nuclear waste as a problem and instead try to figure out how we can use it to our advantage.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #34
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Uranium is not the only fissionable material.

    I think that we should stop looking at nuclear waste as a problem and instead try to figure out how we can use it to our advantage.

    I know. I was simply trying to say that the modern ways of creating nuclear energy seem to have a weak perspective on the long run.

  5. #35
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    KITEGEN for renewable energies. Too few people know about this. Research has shown that energy output can sustain current consumption if wind power is exploited through high-altitude rotating kites rather than turbines, and now it's being implemented (there's one project in the US, another in Italy).
    This is a cool project, didnt know of it yet. I have seen a lot of intresting projects lately, like a snake-like structure you let swim in the ocean and which is moved by waves, producing electrical energy. Or the turbine which always moves clockwise, no matter from which direction the wind blows and which is put at shores in housings and moved by the tides which suck the air thru it. They build a huge thing of that in Brazil at the moment. Very innovative and intresting projects are coming up in the field.

    Another nice thing I have seen is the thermoelectrical generator which uses the Seebeck - Effekt that says how to produce electrical energy from a temperature gradient. This is used to get electrical energy out from the brake in your car, very ingenious work.

    --

    I think what basically pisses me off the most is the attitude people have towards the matter. I personally think it's necessary to find a solution I can live with and people rather say, well lets use nuclear energy, it is the easiest way. I find it funny that so many people in this thread arguemented with an increase in CO2 - exhaustion by using fossile energy sources. That's kinda ridicoulus given the fact that the US didnt care about that not too long ago. But well if you had a change of mind, it's ok I can respect that, I just have to learn that you had a change of mind.

    To underline my point, I am not saying we'll shut down the plants and substitute them with fossile energy plants. That is the last thing I'ld want. I am saying we shut down the plants as renewable energy sources can substitute them and their numbers are growing.

    Watch this, the energy mix of Austria:

    coal: 1 %
    oil: 11 %
    gas: 17 %
    renewable energy ( water power plants, thermal power plants): 71 %

    Austria is leading in the EU with this numbers. They also use a new concept of electrical usage. So called Storage power plants, they are used to "store" electrical energy and that is a major step into the future. So far a power plant produced 100 mega Watts of electrical energy the hour. The consumer tho only needed 60 MWh, so the last 40 MWh were sold to other countries or were lost. There are in fact special arrays designed to just use up spare electrical energy, so its gone. A storage power plant uses for example hydrogen, which changes in an elctrically propelled turbine its aggregate state from liquid to gas and later when you need electrical power, you let the gas run thru the turbine, propelling it and letting it produce electrical energy. The efficiency rate is of course not 1:1 but the best storage power plants already made it to 75% efficiency and that's a good number compared to zero what it was before.

    There's another thing, which deals with electrical transportation optimisation. if you take an alternating current from the power outlet in your house, it runs as a wave (switching its minus and plus side at a speed of 1/50 seconds) thru your machines and goes as a wave back into the electrical outlet. That creates the so called reactive power in the electrical transportation system. So when electrical power plants send their energy your way, they call the energy flowing thru the wires apparent output, because actually it consists to one part of the reactive power and to one part of active power. To compensate for the reactive power, the wires have to have a bigger radius, the generator needs to be bigger and the thermal resistance of all parts needs to be of better quality. That all drives costs up and does even influence effectivity of the energy transportation. If you alone would optimize the elctrical grid, you can save a lot of electrical energy on the way.

    To say that once again, I am not saying that fossile energy sources should be used instead of atomic power, I am saying that both must go and atomic plants must go first, because they are the most dangerous. The political side is especially in Germany kinda sucky aswell. You can as an investor into a nuclear plant earn quadribillions of euro because you have to care for nothing but counting your money. They do it as follows, they tell the state it will get 30 % of the yearly income if they allow them to build the plant and help them a bit. That state says yes we are on bord. Then in the construction phase they say that newer energy guidlines wanted by the people will make the thing more costy and tell the state, if he can maybe say no to his 30% share for the first 3 years so they can equip the plant with the costy security guidelines. The state no clue as it has, has to say yes.

    They said when Japan happened - in Germany this couldnt have happened, because our nuclear power plants alone have five emergency power aggregates per unit, while the one in Japan only had one. They say it's because our engineers understand the concept of redundancy and are brilliant. I say that's a lie, thes have five of that units because the power plant constructor drove with that costs so high in the construction phase, to make more for himself in the end.

    It is when you analyze it, a lobby of money makers, like the oil lobby is. That is the only reason why we have this plants, because you can quickly and easily make money with it. Atomic energy has been for years the most easiest way out there to become rich, it's no wonder they choosed an atomic power plant for mister Burns in simpsons. As the owner of such a plant, you have everyone in your hands, if the state wants more taxes, you can say that will cost him security. If the people want more security, you can raise the price for your electrical power. The owner of a atomic power plant, can make money, easy ways that is not imagineable to the rational mind and it is the reason why we still have them. There are no other reasons.

    One last thing, someone said if we shutdown the plants, we'll have to buy our power from countries who still have plants. That may be true if we shut em down all at once and not substitute them one by one. But the present situation is worse. We need 50% of the nuclear energy used in our plants in Germany at them moment. The rest we sell for big money to other states. That's why they had no problems shutting the half of our plants down all of a sudden. What I want is only enough plants to sustain our energy needs and maybe earn some money with them. But building more of them to earn more money I find ethically objectable.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #36
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Watch this, the energy mix of Austria:

    coal: 1 %
    oil: 11 %
    gas: 17 %
    renewable energy ( water power plants, thermal power plants): 71 %

    And where did you get those numbers ?
    (just curious)

  7. #37
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Ehm, one small detail. By 2004 71% of the energy produced in Austria was from renewable sources (mainly hydropower), but they still imported loads of oil:

    http://ec.europa.eu/energy/energy_po.../mix_at_en.pdf

    Primary Energy Supply
    The primary energy supply of Austria is dominated by oil, natural gas and renewable sources (mainly hydro). Total
    primary supply showed an increase of 31% over the period 1990-2004. Supply of oil and renewable sources
    experienced a similar rate of increase (31% and 34% respectively), while the rate of increase of natural gas supply was
    much higher (52%) over that period. The share of renewable sources (21%) is far above the EU-27 average of 6%.

    Domestic Production
    Austria’s domestic production is dominated by renewable sources, with a 71% share in total production. The main
    source is hydro which dominates electricity production. Biomass also makes a significant contribution to energy supply.
    Austria also produces small quantities of natural gas and oil. Production of solid fuels experienced a 91% reduction
    over the period 1990-2004, while the corresponding increase of natural gas production was 52%. Total energy
    production in Austria has increased slightly over the last 10 years.
    Nevertheless, this is still impressive. According to the Austrian government, they plan for 100% supply from renewables by 2050. Sounds long, but it's not that far away. Let's hope they stick to it.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #38
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    It's from a factsheet published by the european commission. I cant find an english version (http://ec.europa.eu/energy/energy_po.../mix_at_de.pdf)

    It's far from perfect yet, austria isnt really concerned too much with producing all their energy themselves. They import a lot, their total energy consumption is made of only 21 % of renewable energies. Still that is much more than in other countries (Germany it is 7%) and if you think about it, what austria imports directly as energy, other countries import as fossile fuels or nuclear fuel.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #39
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Yea you found my source
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #40
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    ^ Telepathy at work. It's even the exact same link.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

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