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  1. #21
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Nuclear waste is much less polluting than coal fumes. You pretty much just bury it in a hole, avoid the area and you don't have to worry about it. Coal fumes on the other hand, well, I don't think it takes much to tell why that's bad. Pollution is one of the few legitimate environmental concerns, yet environmentalists hardly even talk about it anymore.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schacht_Asse_II

    Asse II was allegedly used as a research mine since 1965. Between 1967 and 1978 radioactive waste was placed in storage. The mine is operated by the German government, and was executed by the Helmholtz Zentrum München. Research was stopped in 1995; between 1995 and 2004 cavinates were filled with salt. After media reports in 2008[1][2] about brine contaminated with radioactive caesium-137, plutonium and strontium politicians accused the operator of not having informed the inspecting authorities. At Sept. 8th, 2008 the responsible ministers of Lower Saxony and the German government concluded to change the operator. The new one, the Bundesamt für Strahlenschutz (federal office for radiation protection), will close the mine according to atomic law instead of mining law[3].

    Instability of the pit
    No columns and struts are used in a salt mine. The extra stress in the remaining salt structure (the pit building) by constructing the chamber is handled in the capping mass. Plasticity effects are taken into account as they naturally occur in salt domes. Significant mechanical stress is built up between the surrounding diapirs and the artificial construction. The capping mass in Asse II moves 15 cm a year which undermines the strength of the construction.

    Because of the high number of tunnel constructions and the decades of use, the deformation in Asse II has reached the state that the pressurised salt is losing its stability: "The supporting construction is softening by creep deformation, plasticity effects and local fractures from the ground pressure."[4] The Institut für Gebirgsmechanik (IfG) in Leipzig which has been monitoring Asse II since 1996 predicted in 2007 that, from the beginning of 2014, an increase in the loss of the load carrying capacity will result in an increased displacement of the capping mass.[5] The shifts may lead to an uncontrollable increase in water inflow and make the continued operation as a dry pit impossible.

    In 1979 a report on the stability of the pit building was released by a working group under the leadership of HH Juergens[6] which describes the now imminent scenario of uncontrolled inflow from the capping mass in the southern flank resulting in the subsequent loss of the load carrying capacity. The manager of Asse II in 1979 and his advisers categorised this report as "unscientific" and declared that there were no stability problems .

    Water inflow
    Water will always flow into a salt mine where the salt barrier in the surrounding structure is breached. This happens when the salt barrier is damaged in the drilling operation or by plasticity deformation of the salt resulting in cracks. Asse II is particularly threatened by water because the salt barrier is in some places only a few meters thick.

    For the period 1906 to 1988 there were 29 documented water breaches. They were sometimes successfully sealed off, partly dry, sometimes negligible (less than 0.5 m³ per day). For the current operational security, they are meaningless[7].

    Between 1988 and 2008 32 new entry points were recorded. Part of the solution is explained as coming from the diapir in the south area. The solution is collected at 658, 725, 750 m and since 2005 at 950 m[8], the inflow is currently (2008) 11.8 m³/Day[9]. The liquid is tested for radioactivity and if levels are passed pumped into a tank truck and transported to the abandoned K+S AG mines (Bad Salzdetfurth, Adolfsglück and Mariaglück)[10][11][12] The brine in Mariaglück was tested again at the end of 2008 with results for caesium-137 and tritium [13].

    The German mineral- and table water decree (Mineral- und Tafelwasserverordnung, 24.5.2004) is set at 120 milli-Bq/l U-233 or U-235 for drinking water[14].
    I don't trust that thing. And nobody can look thousands of years into the future. This is a burden for generations over generations to come.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #22
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Well when its only 20 % of the power requirements produced by nuclear power, the problem that we are depandable on fossile energy reserves persists, because the states are to 80% dependant on them. As people already said the fuel for nuclear power plants will run out aswell. China just planned to build 90 nuclear power plants, if this development goes on and we substitute the usage of fosile fuels with atomic energy we will run into the same peak problem there sooner or later.

    The kjey is and will be alternate renewable concepts or maybe a new invention, but the key wont be nuclear power and you cant just dig nuclear waste and its gone. If it was that easy, why argue
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #23
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    lol @ "you just bury it down there and don't worry about it". It's leaking EVERYWHERE in many deep-planted deposits that were deemed as 100% safe. In a salt mine in France now water is leaking on radioactive waste, and salt mines are places where there's notoriously very little water. I can't believe some people can truly think that you can just "place it down there and go on with your business". Humanity is DOOMED.

    The kjey is and will be alternate renewable concepts or maybe a new invention, but the key wont be nuclear power and you cant just dig nuclear waste and its gone. If it was that easy, why argue
    New inventions are available already, check my previous post. They're being ostracized by oil lobbies, though.
    Last edited by FDG; 03-17-2011 at 08:49 AM.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #24
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    I frequently hear from people against nuclear energy the argument that nuclear energy is not as cheap as it is said because there are tons of additional money going into it indirectly from the government, so it is only cheap for the energy companies (which shouldn't be in private hands in the first place imho but that is another story) but not really for the actual people. Sadly it is not easy to get a reliable source on it, but if nuclear energy is not way more efficient than energy from coal plants and so on (in long term renewable energy) then there is no reason to stay with them.

    The other thing however is that abolishing power plants in Germany wouldn't change the fact that there are power plants around us in EU, like for example some plants in France would be extremely dangerous for us as well. And we already buy electricity from France... so abolishing nuclear plants in Germany just to buy electricity coming from nuclear plants in France would not do anything. And we all know other countries in EU just laugh when Merkel, who herself planned to extend time periods for nuclear plants not long ago, tries to persuade them to go away from nuclear energy...

  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    l
    New inventions are available already, check my previous post. They're being ostracized by oil lobbies, though.
    I will tomorrow, will read what you and Red Herring wrote am short on time atm.

    I frequently hear from people against nuclear energy the argument that nuclear energy is not as cheap as it is said because there are tons of additional money going into it indirectly from the government, so it is only cheap for the energy companies (which shouldn't be in private hands in the first place imho but that is another story) but not really for the actual people. Sadly it is not easy to get a reliable source on it, but if nuclear energy is not way more efficient than energy from coal plants and so on (in long term renewable energy) then there is no reason to stay with them.
    finance of much of the programm comes from the government especially in Germany, very important aspect.

    The other thing however is that abolishing power plants in Germany wouldn't change the fact that there are power plants around us in EU, like for example some plants in France would be extremely dangerous for us as well. And we already buy electricity from France... so abolishing nuclear plants in Germany just to buy electricity coming from nuclear plants in France would not do anything. And we all know other countries in EU just laugh when Merkel, who herself planned to extend time periods for nuclear plants not long ago, tries to persuade them to go away from nuclear energy...
    France has the most atomic power plants in the EU, I think the second most on the world after the US. They gain 75% of their energy from I think its 50 plants.
    leaving the programme can act as a model, if everybody thinks of not leaving nothing would happen. Italy has abolished nuclear power aswell, long ago, think since tschernobyl in a public vote. I found what you wrote in the second paragraph logical but if you see it that way: when we have alternate energy concepts, we'll have new inovative potential for our industry and production, what benefits the country. Its a risk, but that's what business is about
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    I agree entropie, I am not saying I am not for abolishing nuclear plants, just it is frustrating for me to see that the other countries will just again do nothing and benefit from us doing the first step. Especially since I read most countries in EU even plan to build new plants.

  7. #27
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    The OP was asking about America, but there is more European (especially German) than American participation, that is interesting in itself. If I counted correctly, so far we have two Americans - both in favor of nuclear energy (plus one - if Antisocial One is American, I don't know- who mentioned the problem of peak uranium) and four Europeans - all against it. That too is interesting. I didn't expect that.

    But what about the original question? Any more Americans wanna chime in?
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    1. Learn to stabilize nuclear waste?
    2. ???
    3. Everyone's now happy?
    4. Many profit???


    OR

    1. Learn to stabilize nuclear waste?
    2. ???
    3. People don't like the look of it in their backyard and everyone lobbies against it being built where they live.
    4. We have a war and settle our disputes the most efficient way we know of.
    5. Vulture-Profit to be had in the misery???

    Politics!!! The comedy ride of your life.

  9. #29
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    But what about the original question? Any more Americans wanna chime in?
    I don't know enough about it to comment, though I would like to hear from French posters and the problems (or lack thereof) they have had with nuclear power. I've heard that all of the nuclear waste that France has generated up to this point (as well as some imported from elsewhere) is able to be stored in one, not-so-large artificial facility. As a consequence, France is not overly reliant on fossil fuels and discharges much less carbon dioxide per unit of production than most other industrialized countries (this last part I know is true). I haven't really gotten around to researching the issue further, so I don't know how much of this is true and how much is misleading propoganda.

    Edit: As for American opinion, I've heard that the Three-Mile Island incident (totally hyped and not that big a deal in retrospect) stagnated the American nuclear power industry, so I assume that there is enough general opposition to to have prevented pressure for more nuclear plants during periods of high oil prices....but again, I just don't know right now.

  10. #30
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    People have a short memory. Nuclear will be back. Japan is far away. Americans will go back to Dancing with the stars and their ipods and not worry about it in a few months. Remember Chernobyl?
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

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