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  1. #101
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I am not really concerned about the security, it's the waste we never get rid off the things produce that concern me more. You have a big country and can let the stuff vanish, we cant someone will always have it in his neighbourhood
    So if you felt like you had a safe place to dump the stuff, you'd suddenly be okay with nuclear power?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #102
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So if you felt like you had a safe place to dump the stuff, you'd suddenly be okay with nuclear power?
    You know me for 10k posts now, what do you think ? Do you think I've created this thread because I am only looking for a safe spot like Alaska to dumb the stuff ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #103
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    ... I'd rather that we had a good nuclear power plant design to give them rather than them build older generation nuclear plants or more coal plants. That is the choice I believe we will inevitably be faced with.
    Framed that way, I think I'd have to agree.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #104
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Sometimes in discussions with you folks I really have to ask myself if it's more important for you to nitpick, word battle and harm the other than to really discuss a problem and find a solution.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #105
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    How about using reason instead of using force? Actually, from what i have heard, China is starting to notice the costs of its pollution. I agree with Entropie that the waste is more of an issue than plant safety.

    I also agree that new plants are safer than older plants and that therefor, if you decide that you have to use it for at least a few more years, you should upgrade what you have or even have a new one if absolutely neccessary. As I said before, where we disagree is in our estimation of the risks involved and the technological potential of the different technologies. Not only is there more than solar/wind/water, but even those get an undeserved bad rep. Also, interestingly, studies have shown that people living next to nuclear power plants tend to be ardent defenders and strongly believe in its safety. Stockholm much?

    As the thread progresses, it becomes clearer where the differences are:
    1. a slightly different attitude towards environmentalism,
    2. you see yourself forced to choose between nuclear and oil whereas we see ourselves forced to choose between, or rather decide about a mixture of, nuclear, gas, oil, coal and half a dozent of already existing alternative technologies, geography and the economic developement of the last few years plays a role here
    3. we tend to be more skeptical about the limits of economic growth as a whole,
    4. we seem to be more worried about nuclear waste, you seem to be more worried about air pollution through fossils (as Entropie suggested, some of this might be due to geographical differences)

    One can disagree without becoming emotional.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  6. #106
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Sometimes in discussions with you folks I really have to ask myself if it's more important for you to nitpick, word battle and harm the other than to really discuss a problem and find a solution.
    You asked the position of Americans in your original post. I'm giving my opinion and explaining what I believe is the best solution. I've also explained how I believe your proposed solution will fail. But you know what? You're right. I've just been nitpicking.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #107
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You asked the position of Americans in your original post. I'm giving my opinion and explaining what I believe is the best solution. I've also explained how I believe your proposed solution will fail. But you know what? You're right. I've just been nitpicking.
    Ya guess I overdid it there a bit. It's a thing I still have to learn in life that there are people who have different opinions than me and that I cant come to closure with everyone. I dont even know why I am wasting my time here anyways, I mean you have 100 nuclear power plants in the states, it's obvious that you are crazy. What have I thought to think I could cure you over night.

    The best thing tho is the math. You have over 100 nuclear reactors and roughly 240 million people. They produce 20% of your energy demands. We are 80 million and our plants produce 22% of our energy demands. And we have 17. Oh gawd, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, this is crazy
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #108
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    How about using reason instead of using force? Actually, from what i have heard, China is starting to notice the costs of its pollution. I agree with Entropie that the waste is more of an issue than plant safety.
    We're talking about societies that have different fundamental philosophies than ours. The vast majority of the 5+ billion people who are not Westerners are probably not going to share your valuation of the costs and benefits of the different energy technologies. Not only that, it's relatively easy to talk about how we need to conserve when you have a full belly. I don't think reason will win out, not when most of the people on the planet are religious, poor, and uneducated.

    That's why I believe they're simply going to do what they want to do, not what you try to convince them to do, unless you use force. I'd rather avoid both of those choices.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #109
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    I think what he means is that this seems to be more about debating as a sport (which can sure be fun) than about informing about public opinion in the US (as the OP asked) or calmly explaining your own position. Maybe I should add that debating clubs are something very Anglo-Saxon that has only recently reached Germany and is mostly unknown here. This is a very conflict averse country based on a culture of moderation and compromise. As a nation, we prefer cooperation and midway solutions. When you disagree, you politely explain where the portrayal of the facts or the deduction process went wrong. It is about issues, not about perceived fallacies. Maybe that explains why Entropie and I reacted this way.

    This supposed to be a cooperative search for truth, not a battle to the death!

    Also, you claim you only mention flaws in my logic, but so far you have not done that. You merely stated that I supposedly had my facts wrong. That is not the same as accusing the other of a fallacy. I am still waiting.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  10. #110
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I dont thin k that applies to everyone. Especially developing countries who are on the verge to becoming industrial may see a chance to establish a market there for them. If they play a rolemodel role in renewable energies, it will benefit their industry. Many countries otherwise calm have come out of the dark lately in Europe, like Belgium or the netherlands, which are priding themselves in technology and are even invited to leading engineer conferences so one can learn from them. Those people normally invite noone
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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