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  1. #51
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I disagree. I've known too many of these folks... people who have a knack for selling real estate, people who got involved in high-tech and saw a market niche nobody else could see, people who worked their way up from flipping burgers to being night-shift manager at the fast-food joint and eventually was offered a franchise of his own... I can't help but notice a common theme in all these stories, and that's that not a single one of these people got ahead by sitting behind a keyboard and bitching on the internet. That immediately knocks me out of the running.

    I know a guy who, back in the 1970s, put together a business plan and took it to his bank, to propose a venture capital loan to buy a small hotel. He got into the hotel business and prospered... but in those early years he didn't sleep much. Now he owns several hotels, some of them emphatically not small. He can't keep all the books himself... it's too much for one person... but he still audits them regularly, because it's his business. If he doesn't work it it'll fall apart on him. This guy who can vacation anywhere he wants to in the world still works his business, because that's how he got where he is. That's how it's done.
    No doubt.

    Its nice to hear when people are successful or personal efforts and enterprise are rewarded. There lives are surely better for it, as you mention, its good when their success benefits others too.

  2. #52
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    People do love their anecdotes.

    Macro-analysis shows that financial mobility has seriously stagnated in the USA for decades. I don't particularly care to hear the story of how your friend Bob or your cousin Stan happened to be one of the people that moved around a bit.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    People do love their anecdotes.

    Macro-analysis shows that financial mobility has seriously stagnated in the USA for decades. I don't particularly care to hear the story of how your friend Bob or your cousin Stan happened to be one of the people that moved around a bit.
    The stuff about the Irish was really uncalled for too - it kind of makes me gag in light of how the Irish were discriminated against in this country, their children working in factories, et al.

    I see a bunch of self-congratulatory bullshit in this thread, not surprising from the kind of people who feel sorry for delusional millionaires who live beyond their means.

    I take no issue with millionaires. Self-made millionaires are fine. But when they start bitching about not having enough money, it's really time for a reality check.

  4. #54
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    People do love their anecdotes.
    That's because, unless you're a graduate student in sociology or economics, you don't have any of your own hard data of your own. Anecdotes are all you've got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Macro-analysis shows that financial mobility has seriously stagnated in the USA for decades. I don't particularly care to hear the story of how your friend Bob or your cousin Stan happened to be one of the people that moved around a bit.
    Even if this is true, it's a generality. A couple of things are certain... one is that you can't use the odds to predict what will happen in a particular case. Another is that you can actually influence outcomes in particular cases by way of the attitude you adopt.

    Which don't look good for you, MP.

  5. #55
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I see a bunch of self-congratulatory bullshit in this thread, not surprising from the kind of people who feel sorry for delusional millionaires who live beyond their means.
    ?!??

    Ain't no "feeling sorry for millionaires" from me. These folks can take care of themselves.

  6. #56
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ?!??

    Ain't no "feeling sorry for millionaire from me." These folks can take care of themselves.
    None here either. Just addressing hypocrisy.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    None here either. Just addressing hypocrisy.

    What hypocrisy is that? How do you know he doesn't give to charity? Studies show that poorer people tend to tip better than the wealthy.

    So where is the hypocrisy?

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Ain't no "feeling sorry for millionaires" from me. These folks can take care of themselves.
    Agreed.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Shift and dodge all you want but it's all text. Text is meaningless unless put to real life action. Go do it. Make a serious difference in the world. Give away everything above and beyond basic human needs to survive (including the luxury of Internet connection) and then go gather some more wealth to give away. Be an honest leader, someone who's willing to put his money and life towards making a difference to the less fortunate. And then it wouldn't be hypocritical to suggest that other wealthy individuals should too, gift away their own material wealth. For that matter, is it also possible that some of those self-same "millionaires" are already donating sizable amounts to charitable causes?
    I'm not shifting and dodging, you turned the discussion to discussing my personal charitability and I didnt see how you could do that without it being a deliberate straying off topic.

    To be honest the original post confirms the truism that money brings happiness but after a point it just brings more money, its a good thing if people motivated to acquire wealth act in a manner which benefits others.

    I like the idea of Smith's maxim "that its not from benefice or benevolence etc." but its a relative rather than an absolute truth and most of the disgruntled millionaires could do well to live within their means (something they're good at telling those on lower incomes to do) instead of seeking to cash in at the expense of the possible survival odds of the economy per se.

    I do not believe that it is hypocrisy for those critical of the existing distribution of wealth to remain critical or make criticism without living the life of a austere penitent. That individual or personal action can be important, for entirely different reasons, but I dont believe that it will effect the structures which create disparities in wealth to begin with (at best it might influence the culture of a small circle of individuals, peoples sphere of concern and sphere of action are generally pretty different things, one wide, the other small).

    I'm no more a fan of armchair social critics than anyone else but it was really needless to personalise the discussion in the way that you did there, its also some extreme suggestion to be divested of all possessions, belongings, earnings, usually the reserve of those on a spiritual plane of existence and hardly a workable social panacea.

    I could suggest that you seek to maximise your personal well being by acting in an unmitigatedly selfish fashion, perhaps take advantage of others generosity or charity irrespective of any real need to do so, honouring no reciprocal obligation or relationship which doesnt involve a cash payment to you but it would be a lousy, strawman way of discussing things. Its hardly going to make you want to carry on a discussion with me either, you'd be more likely to become less persuaded and more entrenched in your own opinions. Anyway, I hope you're having a good day.

  10. #60
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    That's because, unless you're a graduate student in sociology or economics, you don't have any of your own hard data of your own. Anecdotes are all you've got.
    I don't have my own hard data, but at least I've looked into data found by others who do have those kinds of degrees, and I'm aiming to have a sociology PhD myself some day.


    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Even if this is true, it's a generality. A couple of things are certain... one is that you can't use the odds to predict what will happen in a particular case. Another is that you can actually influence outcomes in particular cases by way of the attitude you adopt.
    1: What's your point? No, a odds do not guarantee what happens in a particular case, but they can help you to predict, particularly to the more thorough the information behind the formulation of the odds is. The reality is that distribution of wealth here is very hyperbolic, and data shows people aren't moving up very much. Your man pulling himself up by his boot straps is the exception that proves the rule. Why do you think that is?

    2: You can influence outcomes to an extent. Not nearly enough of one for me to assume personal wealth is a good indicator of a person's merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    None here either. Just addressing hypocrisy.
    Actually, not necessarily. You are not automatically a hypocrite for practicing one thing and preaching another.

    That being said, focusing on one's hypocrisy even if it were legitimate is either ad hominem or a red herring and I don't particularly care.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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