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  1. #121
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Billionare > Millionare

    When a millionare meets a billionare, its the same as you meeting...

    Oh, its
    You
    ....

  2. #122
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Then I say shame on you, Magic, for the naked theft you have perpetrated against the citizens of Mali. How dare you spend time on the Internet squandering your ill-gotten gains on electric lighting and cable service, when there are people in the world going to bed hungry this night? Because of YOU!?!

    [/silliness]
    I've already some points that allude to how I feel about this international disparity.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I firmly believe that there can come a day when there is no wage-slavery and no abusive industry anywhere in the world... where everyone who wants to can have not only adequate food, clothing, and shelter, but enough of all these things to represent a high standard of living. The earth has enough resources to sustain it... it's just a matter of distribution.
    I'm not so sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    But I propose to you that the answer to this distribution problem does not lie in simply redistributing the wealth. That won't work unless you also redistribute opportunity. By that I mean opportunity for education, for medical care, for justice under the law, and for pursuit of personal gain. The poorest nations in the world are kleptocracies; the people are poor because the government steals everything that isn't nailed down, and many things that are. This makes even the smallest bit of economic development impossible, and foreign investment stays far away.
    I don't intend to give tax money directly to people from lower brackets. I do want a progressive income tax to go into education, health care, infrastructure, law enforcement, etc... This is actually a reason I'm not very fond of all that aid to Africa. It goes into giving them food and medicine on which they are strung along, instead of helping them have an education system, healthy people, good roads, or fighting off pirates.

    Kleptocracies do suck. This is because they take indiscriminately and spend what they take on their own indulgences and there is no mechanism within the government their for the victims to have a political leverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Give every man and woman in the world equal rights and equal justice under the law, including the right to a fair and secure marketplace for goods, services, and real property, and you will see the standard of living improve worldwide. Provide basic medical care and health education to everyone in the world, and the standard of living will go up yet again. Provide quality education through secondary school and make it universal, and it's only a matter of time before nations like Chad and Mali are on their way... but it starts with good government, and equal rights under the law. Without these things the rest of it won't matter much.
    And how do you propose to do that? The world over itself has no law, there is not global law. And to that end countries like the USA actually act on global incentives to do things that keep a lot of poor countries impoverished.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Nope, just offsetting your fallacious description of millionaires whining. I didn't read anything within the article that suggested whining.

    The point which you appear to be missing time and again, is that people have what they have and are legally entitled to what they have unless they're prosecuted for criminal activity. To suggest that people who have, should have any or all of it taken away for those who don't, makes no sense coming from individuals who have more than others. It's not a rocket science concept and is flooring me how difficult a concept it appears to you.
    Wait, are you making this about taxes? Because saying people should pay taxes is not even in the same neighborhood as taking away all of people's luxuries or saying they should live in poverty. After paying even a sizable chunk of taxes, most of these people will still be quite free to purchase numerous luxury items which place them above the average citizen.

    I've seen you arguing against anarcho-capitalism/right wing libertarianism in other threads, so if people don't pay taxes, I'd love for you to suggest how we'd even keep a reasonable, moderate Republican society in tact in the United States. To quote many in the Republican party, "Freedom isn't free"...and that's not just applying to young men serving in the military.

  4. #124
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What's your point?
    You claimed that everyone couldn't be millionaires but they mostly are, in comparison to the 1500's or even to countries less fortunate than say, England or the United States. So, say a less fortunate country like Somalia were to invade England or the United States and take enough to even the playing field. Would this be okay?

    No, you don't get it. I said we will find something else. Since none of the currently attractive people will exist in the same state, something is going to have to give. It can never be leveled. Between two mutilated people, by some chance, one will be mutilated in a slightly less ugly way. It's contrast. If I show you red and blue together, you'll have a hard time noticing the difference between R 100 G 0 B 0 and R 100 G 0 B 64. But if your whole range were within that scope, you'd notice the difference and probably make decisions based on it.

    And that being said, you didn't answer my point about having an appreciable impact or not on those who are subjected to it. So now I've whittled you down to half a point from my list.
    These are semantical arguments. The concept remains the same. Should the playing field be leveled between those less fortunate to those more fortunate in every aspect of life? Should lobotomies be given out to high IQ individuals since it gives them an advantage in life?

  5. #125
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Wait, are you making this about taxes? Because saying people should pay taxes is not even in the same neighborhood as taking away all of people's luxuries or saying they should live in poverty. After paying even a sizable chunk of taxes, most of these people will still be quite free to purchase numerous luxury items which place them above the average citizen.

    I've seen you arguing against anarcho-capitalism/right wing libertarianism in other threads, so if people don't pay taxes, I'd love for you to suggest how we'd even keep a reasonable, moderate Republican society in tact in the United States. To quote many in the Republican party, "Freedom isn't free"...and that's not just applying to young men serving in the military.
    No, you just made something up again.

  6. #126
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Then I say shame on you, Magic, for the naked theft you have perpetrated against the citizens of Mali. How dare you spend time on the Internet squandering your ill-gotten gains on electric lighting and cable service, when there are people in the world going to bed hungry this night? Because of YOU!?!

    [/silliness]

    I firmly believe that there can come a day when there is no wage-slavery and no abusive industry anywhere in the world... where everyone who wants to can have not only adequate food, clothing, and shelter, but enough of all these things to represent a high standard of living. The earth has enough resources to sustain it... it's just a matter of distribution.

    But I propose to you that the answer to this distribution problem does not lie in simply redistributing the wealth. That won't work unless you also redistribute opportunity. By that I mean opportunity for education, for medical care, for justice under the law, and for pursuit of personal gain. The poorest nations in the world are kleptocracies; the people are poor because the government steals everything that isn't nailed down, and many things that are. This makes even the smallest bit of economic development impossible, and foreign investment stays far away.

    Give every man and woman in the world equal rights and equal justice under the law, including the right to a fair and secure marketplace for goods, services, and real property, and you will see the standard of living improve worldwide. Provide basic medical care and health education to everyone in the world, and the standard of living will go up yet again. Provide quality education through secondary school and make it universal, and it's only a matter of time before nations like Chad and Mali are on their way... but it starts with good government, and equal rights under the law. Without these things the rest of it won't matter much.
    If those governments behave that way its simply because the government in those nations constitutes the ruling class, they've not developed classes independent of the state which can act as the ruling classes do elsewhere, it'll develop if you give it time enough.

    I'd suggest that the very reason redistribution exists at all is because the sort of restructuring necessary to create an economy which doesnt exhibit the kinds of maldistribution you mention is unthinkable or undesirable, so you go for the klurg or quick fix instead. Sure it has its own consequences, not all of them good, but it saves a proper overhaul of the entire economy.

    I can accept most of the arguments made against redistribution per se and a lot of the time it does seem like taking money from those who've earned it or been granted it as a legacy by those who have earned it to those who will squander it but as I've said it serves a purpose.

    Moves towards the marketplace utopia of capitalist legend is only going to strengthen the hand of uncompetitive elements best placed to take advantage of the change, its never going to happen, its the same as the supposition that if Stalinism hadnt had the threat of foreign powers it would have spontenously dismantled government itself, ie the whithering away of the state.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I suggest you go back to the article and find excerpts where the millionaires are weeping.
    At this point, the article is hardly relevant, and this thread is an adventure taking us places I could never have anticipated. Besides, weep just sounds better, but we could use lament or some other way of conveying the displeasure of financial insecurity, compounded by the scorn expressed by so many other financially insecure commoners.

  8. #128
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    The point which you appear to be missing time and again, is that people have what they have and are legally entitled to what they have unless they're prosecuted for criminal activity.
    Laws change you know.

    Besides, I'm talking about ethics, not law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    To suggest that people who have, should have any or all of it taken away for those who don't, makes no sense coming from individuals who have more than others. It's not a rocket science concept and is flooring me how difficult a concept it appears to you.
    The situation actually is far more complicated than you are making it out to be, and that's your problem. You're being condescending because we're not understanding something so simple. I see that you're not understand that it actually isn't so simple. There are reasons for me to assert a person making a million a year (who I know is not the subject of the article in the OP) should be giving far more than me. There are reasons for me to be hesitant about going right ahead and trying to lead by example. There are reasons to doubt the dynamic of taking from one person and giving to another within a state is comparable to doing so between nations, etc...

    Your interpretation of this is too qualitative and not enough quantitative for me. It also seems far to deontological. I live by teleological ethics, see?
    Teleological ethics

    The logic of your charges does not even translate into this ethic.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #129
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    At this point, the article is hardly relevant, and this thread is an adventure taking us places I could never have anticipated. Besides, weep just sounds better, but we could use lament or some other way of conveying the displeasure of financial insecurity, compounded by the scorn expressed by so many other financially insecure commoners.
    You've just made my point. It's all comparative and that people can't see their own hypocrisy, floors me!

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    No, you just made something up again.
    I asked a question, I'm trying to clarify what you're saying, I'm not "making shit up" and I'm really tired of arguing with someone who keeps making such childish accusations.

    If people want laws to change about taxes or caps on salaries or that people have questionably not at all earned what they do have, that they have been paid more than their work is actually worth, it does make sense, even if you happen to disagree with it.

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