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  1. #71
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    The article doesn't have answers to the questions that a lot of us have been asking, but I would like to believe that these former parents would have wanted their child to live. I would hope that they wouldn't have sacrificed their baby boy for vegan ideals. I think that ignorance/stupidity can sum up a lot of it.

    However, pre- and post-natal care is often structured by what insurance will allow, at least in the US. Having a baby the "right", middle-class way is really expensive. Parents and children in the U.S. suffer from the highest infant morality rate in the developed world, which is also stratified by race and economic means. When the CDC reported on this phenomenon in the fall, one of their recommendations was for a universal coverage of pre- and post-natal care.

    So, the vegan parents notwithstanding, babies in the US do die, and guess what, Wolf, it's not as simple as questions of breastfeeding vs. formula, and it's not genetic inferiority. Poverty and the stratification of health care kill babies and children. And on the breastfeeding topic, US medicine has been sending mothers a lot of mixed messages over the past few decades on the debate. Up until the late 1990s, formula feeding was seen as the "scientific" way to make sure baby got all of its necessary nutrients. Now, we have a resurgence of breastfeeding as the "right" way to raise one's baby, but Ivy's statistics show that many mothers cannot due to biological constraints. It's also really hard to breastfeed on a full-time work schedule, and while some white-collar institutions are making allowances for that, those are still in the minority, and ain't nobody standing up for mothers who have to work multiple jobs or shifts.

    As far as the "your genetically inferior offspring should be forced to starve and die, if you're unable to breastfeed" comments, my mother wanted to breastfeed both me and my brother, but couldn't. Crazily enough, I'm a fine strapping physical specimen at 5'9", quite intelligent, and happy that I was "allowed" to survive, thank you very much.

  2. #72
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    Also, HilbertSpace, your analysis rocks!

  3. #73
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashka View Post
    The article doesn't have answers to the questions that a lot of us have been asking, but I would like to believe that these former parents would have wanted their child to live. I would hope that they wouldn't have sacrificed their baby boy for vegan ideals. I think that ignorance/stupidity can sum up a lot of it.

    However, pre- and post-natal care is often structured by what insurance will allow, at least in the US. Having a baby the "right", middle-class way is really expensive. Parents and children in the U.S. suffer from the highest infant morality rate in the developed world, which is also stratified by race and economic means. When the CDC reported on this phenomenon in the fall, one of their recommendations was for a universal coverage of pre- and post-natal care.

    So, the vegan parents notwithstanding, babies in the US do die, and guess what, Wolf, it's not as simple as questions of breastfeeding vs. formula, and it's not genetic inferiority. Poverty and the stratification of health care kill babies and children. And on the breastfeeding topic, US medicine has been sending mothers a lot of mixed messages over the past few decades on the debate. Up until the late 1990s, formula feeding was seen as the "scientific" way to make sure baby got all of its necessary nutrients. Now, we have a resurgence of breastfeeding as the "right" way to raise one's baby, but Ivy's statistics show that many mothers cannot due to biological constraints. It's also really hard to breastfeed on a full-time work schedule, and while some white-collar institutions are making allowances for that, those are still in the minority, and ain't nobody standing up for mothers who have to work multiple jobs or shifts.

    As far as the "your genetically inferior offspring should be forced to starve and die, if you're unable to breastfeed" comments, my mother wanted to breastfeed both me and my brother, but couldn't. Crazily enough, I'm a fine strapping physical specimen at 5'9", quite intelligent, and happy that I was "allowed" to survive, thank you very much.
    I'm in love.

    Your points about working and breastfeeding are spot-on. Many women can nurse fine but can't pump even a single ounce (me) so if they have to be away from the baby at all, formula's pretty much the option. And even for people who have more luck with the pump, it is much more difficult to maintain a supply that way. So although I am VERY much an agitator for nursing mothers' rights and better information for those making the choice, I understand that for many women, the choice is breastfeed or work.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Okay, Ivy, I know I'm going to sound pretty dumb- what is a freestanding birth center? All I know of are hospitals and clinics, such as the one for difficult pregnancies (my sis used one, but it has been closed down in the budget cuts).

    I mentioned home visits by midwives to another sister and she was also surprised, but she's also a NYer.

    You did mention that it was midway between at home birth and a hospital birth, right? I don't know if i've heard of it before. One of my sisters did have a midwife, but that was in the hospital.

    Kashka, too true.
    Last edited by Crabapple; 05-10-2007 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Just cuz I'm dumb.
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  5. #75
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    Okay, I know I'm going to sound pretty dumb- what is a freestanding birth center? All I know of are hospitals and clinics, such as the one for difficult pregnancies (my sis used one, but it has been closed down in the budget cuts).

    I mentioned home visits by midwives to another sister and she was also surprised, but she's also a NYer.
    I know New Yorkers who have had homebirths. And I just looked it up () there are three birth centers in New York. One in Brooklyn, one in the Bronx, and one in Montour Falls.

    A freestanding birth center is like a middle option between hospital and home birth (having the baby at home, usually with a midwife attending, but some people do without-- not something I would ever recommend or stand behind). When I was pregnant, I went to the birth center for all of my prenatal care, and then when I went into labor I went to the same place to have the baby. Downstairs they have three birthing suites with large tubs, beds, and emergency equipment. I went home just a few hours after the birth, and they visited me a day or two later. I think two.

  6. #76
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Thanks Ivy.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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  7. #77
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Dang. I was hoping you'd ask more questions so I could some more.

  8. #78
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    Thank you, Ivy. :blushing:

    The freestanding birth center option is also new to me. Most of the birthing debates that I've been privy to are focused on the hospital vs. midwifery debate. Also, doulas. Much love for the doulas. But I'm definitely filing away that information for when I need it, ie, when I/should I decide to reproduce.

    Plus, the NY medical budget cuts. WTF?

  9. #79
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashka View Post
    Thank you, Ivy. :blushing:

    The freestanding birth center option is also new to me. Most of the birthing debates that I've been privy to are focused on the hospital vs. midwifery debate. Also, doulas. Much love for the doulas. But I'm definitely filing away that information for when I need it, ie, when I/should I decide to reproduce.

    Plus, the NY medical budget cuts. WTF?
    Midwives work in hospitals too! I had my first child in a hospital with a midwife. I went to the same birth center for prenatal care, but I went 2 weeks overdue-- you have to be low-risk to deliver at the birth center, so if the baby comes too early or waits too long, gotta go to the hospital. But unless there are other complications, the midwife can attend the birth at the hospital. I was even induced due to low amniotic fluid, and my midwife stayed with me the entire time. Most OBs wouldn't do that-- the nurses handle most of the labor and the OB comes in if there's a problem or at the end to catch the baby.

    Point being, if the home birth or birth center options don't appeal to you, you could still have a midwife. I loved the birth center option, though-- it was so peaceful there, and I was relaxed knowing that if there were problems I could be transferred to the hospital in 5-10 minutes. Roughly the same amount of time it would take to transfer from department to department within the hospital. (Not to mention the parking and leaving was a lot easier. heh.)

  10. #80
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    ::meticulously squirrels away Ivy's informative response::

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