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  1. #51
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Aren't you forcing neolithic values on a modern context?
    Hardly. You cannot guarantee that the world we know and love will last forever. In fact, it's highly likely that all the modern conveniences we know will not be readily available in 200 years. When this happens, everyone that cannot survive in the natural environment without medicines and vaccines will rapidly die in massive numbers.

    We've been out trying to stop a bird flu epidemic in fear of a full pandemic. We'll cheat death and nature whenever possible. But the fact is that it always wins in the end...

  2. #52
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Hardly. You cannot guarantee that the world we know and love will last forever. In fact, it's highly likely that all the modern conveniences we know will not be readily available in 200 years. When this happens, everyone that cannot survive in the natural environment without medicines and vaccines will rapidly die in massive numbers.

    We've been out trying to stop a bird flu epidemic in fear of a full pandemic. We'll cheat death and nature whenever possible. But the fact is that it always wins in the end...
    I imagine if that happens, the people who would have chosen not to breastfeed because of convenience or distaste will just have to do it anyway, and the ones who had physiological issues will go back to wetnursing. So?

  3. #53
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Actually, it's increasing a problem. It's a solution that, as I said, increases the number of genetically inferior and stupid people in the world.
    Sorry, have I missed something here? There's a direct correlation between a woman's ability to lactate her having a child who doesn't just drop a few IQ points but actually becomes 'stupid' ? What if she has a boy? How is his mother's inability to lactate a genetically inferior trait for him?

    Human evolution is largely bunk anyway
    January has April's showers
    And 2 and 2 always makes a 5

  4. #54
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langrenus View Post
    Sorry, have I missed something here? There's a direct correlation between a woman's ability to lactate her having a child who doesn't just drop a few IQ points but actually becomes 'stupid' ? What if she has a boy? How is his mother's inability to lactate a genetically inferior trait for him?

    Human evolution is largely bunk anyway
    There is a link with IQ, bizarrely. Doesnt actually seem to make someone stupid, but it does seem to limit intellectual development.

    Studies Show Breastfeeding Improves IQ

    (yeah I know, lies.. damn lies.. and statistics)

    -Geoff

  5. #55
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    LIES I TELL YA. Particularly when it's a pro-breastfeeding website But yes, I think the link is generally accepted

    However, calling non-breastfed people stupid is a bit of a stretch. I can understand how a drop of 5.2 IQ points might lead to some people here being classified as technically braindead, but still... (I'm joking by the way, in case anyone didn't get that)
    January has April's showers
    And 2 and 2 always makes a 5

  6. #56
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    my grandmother on my mother's side (patron of the arts plastique, self-absorbed, never cooked for my mom) didn't breast feed and my mom tells me she never felt close to her mother for that reason. my mom breast fed me, and i am very close to her. my aunt breast fed my cousin for a VERY long time (you'd laugh.) and they are close as can be.

  7. #57
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The IQ thing, to me, is irrevocably tainted because the simple fact is that more educated women breastfeed than less educated women. It seems likely that this is having more impact on the intellectual development of the children than what they were fed as infants. I'm sure there are plenty of us here who were fed formula and are plenty darn smart. (Not me-- I was breastfed for three years so obviously I'm SUPER smart. *preen*)

    And as for breastfeeding = bonding, sorry, but that's simply not true. It may force a mother/baby couple to be physically close 8-12 times a day, but it's not as if you can't get that with a bottle if you want it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cut the grass View Post
    my grandmother on my mother's side (patron of the arts plastique, self-absorbed, never cooked for my mom) didn't breast feed and my mom tells me she never felt close to her mother for that reason. my mom breast fed me, and i am very close to her. my aunt breast fed my cousin for a VERY long time (you'd laugh.) and they are close as can be.
    I promise I wouldn't laugh. I breastfed my daughter until she was 3 and I'm still breastfeeding my son who is 2. Granted he's only nursing once a day or less at this point.

  8. #58
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    extended breastfeeding = threadkiller? I'll remember that for the future!

  9. #59
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Well, I'm willing to give breastfeeding a shot, if you think it will be healthier for me!

    More seriously, it's a complicated topic, as some of the posts here have shown, especially in a professional/economic culture like the U.S. where there are working mothers. We've been through it ourselves and recognize that there is no ideal solution. In the end, you do what you think is best overall for everyone, and go from there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #60
    Senior Member HilbertSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The IQ thing, to me, is irrevocably tainted because the simple fact is that more educated women breastfeed than less educated women. It seems likely that this is having more impact on the intellectual development of the children than what they were fed as infants.
    Has anyone ever told you that you have outstanding scientific intuition?

    I get really uncomfortable when people make assumptions about the fitness of a given type, especially when its used in a context of whether or not society (or the gene pool) would be better off if they were allowed to die.

    Eugenics is a product of seeing the world of evolution by the light of a Newtonian candle. The benefit is that it makes things fairly easy to understand. The problem is that it's not strictly correct. The complexity of an organism is such that any model that would judge the fitness of a single characteristic out of context is oversimplified to the point of being academically interesting, but realistically invalid. The fitness of a type must be evaluated in the context of the surrounding environment - and, honestly, the only thing capable of evaluating all of the variables (which are constantly changing) is the selection process itself. We can try to understand such things, but it's irrational to think that we can take a normative approach, especially at this point when the necessary theories are still in their infancy.

    The simplified models are important in increasing our understanding, but they should never be allowed to contribute to our hubris and spur us to action.
    JBS Haldane's Four Stages of Scientific Theories:

    1. This is worthless nonsense.
    2. This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view.
    3. This is true, but quite unimportant.
    4. I always said so.

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