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Thread: Socialism

  1. #51
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    capitalism gets a bad rap for various reasons
    1) people think america is a capitalist nation, absolutely not
    2) people tie monopolies with capitalism. 100% of monopolies always come about as a result of some kind of government intervention
    3) capitalism is associated with corporations, corporations are ILLEGAL in a capitalist society
    4) people associate the traits of capitalism with negative connotations.
    - wanting to benefit yourself
    - having ambition and drive
    - belief in reeping what you sow
    - looking out for yourself first
    none of these things are bad traits.
    5) capitalism is associated with consumerism. consumerism is caused because businesses go overseas to hire workers for production. this comes about because the legal system is so bureaucratic that opening a factory literally costs billions more in the United States than in China
    6) competition is not bad. competition drives inovation, inovation drives increased value, capitalism efficiently distributes value via win/win exchanges (aka purchases), the distribution of this new value drives growth, which leads to more businesses, more innovation and more growth and increases people standard of living at an insanely fast rate.
    7) capitalism gets a bad wrap because it forces people to bear the consequences of their actions. socialist nations crumple because their citizens become like children wanting the government to spoon feed them

  2. #52
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    1) you make no argument. just because the United States and most of Europe are have several socialist policies doesn't mean it's effective
    2) I draw the line at criminal behavior because everything past that is not the government's business. what we do, how much money we make, what our livelyhood is, why would
    3) every monopoly in history has been government endorsed (Ayn Rand)
    4) if you give all the power to the state, they WILL abuse it. politicians do NOT have our best interests in mind. one need only here what they say off record
    5) the united states was supposed to be a republic, not a pure democracy. pure democracy is rule by the mob
    6) on that note, just because the people vote for something doesn't make it just. no government has the right to decide who you can marry, what you can wear, which bathrooms you can use (case in point Jim Crow) or how much money you can make no matter how many fools vote for it.
    7) do you know why the Great Depression is the only american depression you here about? it's because it's the only one the government tried to fix
    8) free markets are much more effective because there is actual incentive for success (ie, you make more money)
    9) on a similar note, socialism saps the public of ambition and passion.
    10) on the same note from a scientific perspective, socialism saps the mind of intrinsic motivation (motivation based on interest) because the government decides which occupations are suitable for people
    11) it saps people of extrinsic motivation because they decide how much money you earn and how much you keep
    12) if you look at china's fiscal policies, they are actually much less communist than they are on paper
    13) our poor handling of government has lead to the entire monetary system of the world being based on US dollars which are backed by NOTHING. historically, there have been over 3000 fiat currencies (currencies with no REAL value) and they've all disintegrated via deflation out of existance or hyperinflation and destroyed the entire infrastructure of the country with it. this is the first time in history that EVERY money supply in the developed world is fiat. aka when the dollar inevitably crashes, you are looking at the entire economy of the developed world going down the drain
    14) people cannot be free in a socialist society, are you arguing that people shouldn't be free and should have someone controlling what there livelihood?
    15) socialism gives all the power to the government, if there is even 1 corrupt politician in the mix (there will likely be 100s), they have all the power to do whatever they want to the country.
    16) happiness without freedom is a psychological impossibility
    You make some good points, but most assumptions about happiness seem to revolve around money. There are third world nations who are happy and don't even use money.

    If you give ANYONE absolute power, they will abuse it and be corrupt. What is that quote "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"

    I think its possible to have a mix of capitalism/socialism, so there is more economic equality. Our government is corrupt now, so are corporations.

    I agree wholeheartedly on the fiat currency thing. I am not sure there is any perfect solution to that. It is designed to work in favor or those who know how to exploit it.

    I saw a website a while ago that proposed a new economy based on resources.

    http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/a-new-social-desig/resource-based-economy

    It's been a while since I read it, but it was interesting at the time.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    capitalism gets a bad rap for various reasons
    1) people think america is a capitalist nation, absolutely not
    2) people tie monopolies with capitalism. 100% of monopolies always come about as a result of some kind of government intervention
    3) capitalism is associated with corporations, corporations are ILLEGAL in a capitalist society
    4) people associate the traits of capitalism with negative connotations.
    - wanting to benefit yourself
    - having ambition and drive
    - belief in reeping what you sow
    - looking out for yourself first
    none of these things are bad traits.
    5) capitalism is associated with consumerism. consumerism is caused because businesses go overseas to hire workers for production. this comes about because the legal system is so bureaucratic that opening a factory literally costs billions more in the United States than in China
    6) competition is not bad. competition drives inovation, inovation drives increased value, capitalism efficiently distributes value via win/win exchanges (aka purchases), the distribution of this new value drives growth, which leads to more businesses, more innovation and more growth and increases people standard of living at an insanely fast rate.
    7) capitalism gets a bad wrap because it forces people to bear the consequences of their actions. socialist nations crumple because their citizens become like children wanting the government to spoon feed them
    Well said. I agree 100%.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #54
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I was going with the most basic nature of socialism that I believe almost any definition would incorporate--

    " a set of political and economic theories based on the belief that everyone has an equal right to a share of a country's wealth and that the government should own and control the main industries."

    so any example of a country past or present where the government owns and controls all main industries.. provides equal wealth and services... and retains a high quality of living without financial instability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    ^^^

    If what we are talking about doesnt incorporate these ideas, then its not socialism.
    There are multiple ways to interpret that definition, but let's assume I have it right.

    If I do, then no, I cannot think of an example of a economy like that which worked. In fact, I cannot think of an economy that fits the definition completely at all. One has never existed and presumably never can. Furthermore, I'm not sure what the relevance is, because you'll not often find someone actually arguing for an economy such as this. Most of the time you hear an argument with the word socialism getting thrown around, it's not being used by the definition you gave.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There are multiple ways to interpret that definition, but let's assume I have it right.

    If I do, then no, I cannot think of an example of a economy like that which worked. In fact, I cannot think of an economy that fits the definition completely at all. One has never existed and presumably never can. Furthermore, I'm not sure what the relevance is, because you'll not often find someone actually arguing for an economy such as this. Most of the time you hear an argument with the word socialism getting thrown around, it's not being used by the definition you gave.
    What definition is it being used by then?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  6. #56
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    3) capitalism is associated with corporations, corporations are ILLEGAL in a capitalist society
    Is this true? Interesting if so. Is it not up to the nation to make corporations legal? Is there a capitalist nation where this is so?

    I posted something about the original intent of corporations in another thread as being public trusts for risky major work projects like the Panama Canal.

    I would agree they should be illegal in the business world. Antisocial in behaviour.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  7. #57
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    Corporations are illegal? That's the first time I've heard this.

  8. #58
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    What definition is it being used by then?
    Unfortunately, far too many. There are many different things a person might mean when they talk of socialism. But in any popular discourse, be it among the laypeople or the beltway politicians, in the USA and Canada (and in some but certainly not all areas in Europe) those who promote "socialism" tend to be promoting either market socialism or social democracy, and those who are attacking "socialism" are usually just attacking government regulation of markets or property, publicly funded services/institutions, or methods of procuring money for the government that may be as conventional as high progressive taxes. Basically, in the year 2011, anything left-wing is "socialist". All sides have lost sight of this.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Unfortunately, far too many. There are many different things a person might mean when they talk of socialism. But in any popular discourse, be it among the laypeople or the beltway politicians, in the USA and Canada (and in some but certainly not all areas in Europe) those who promote "socialism" tend to be promoting either market socialism or social democracy, and those who are attacking "socialism" are usually just attacking government regulation of markets or property, publicly funded services/institutions, or methods of procuring money for the government that may be as conventional as high progressive taxes. Basically, in the year 2011, anything left-wing is "socialist". All sides have lost sight of this.
    Yes, on the whole spectrum, the fringes have taken over the dialogue and pushed definitions of everything political so far right. I've heard "conservatives" say their beloved Reagan, Eisenhower, LBJ would be considered liberals if they were running today. Scare tactics. Always throwing the S and N words around.....Socialism and Nazis. Ah well, history has a way of repeating itself.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Unfortunately, far too many. There are many different things a person might mean when they talk of socialism. But in any popular discourse, be it among the laypeople or the beltway politicians, in the USA and Canada (and in some but certainly not all areas in Europe) those who promote "socialism" tend to be promoting either market socialism or social democracy, and those who are attacking "socialism" are usually just attacking government regulation of markets or property, publicly funded services/institutions, or methods of procuring money for the government that may be as conventional as high progressive taxes. Basically, in the year 2011, anything left-wing is "socialist". All sides have lost sight of this.
    social democracy political ideology that advocates a peaceful, evolutionary transition of society from capitalism to socialism using established political processes.

    Market socialism refers to various economic systems where the means of production are publicly owned, managed and operated for a profit in a market economy.

    How exactly are you NOT seeing these ideas incorporated into a set of political and economic theories based on the belief that everyone has an equal right to a share of a country's wealth and that the government should own and control the main industries....
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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