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Thread: Socialism

  1. #41
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    So Nobody can offer up an example of a successful socialist economy?

    I attribute this to the general understanding that intellectually socialism sounds wonderful, but in reality it creates slaves. Some individuals are slaves by providing beneifts to and for others, and some are slaves to their neediness.

    MOST socialists declare that the state owes subsistence, well-being, and education to all its citizens.. that it should be generous, charitable, involved in everthing, devoted to everybody... that it should intervene directly to relieve all suffering, satisfy and anticipate all wants, furnish capital to all enterprises, enlightenment to all minds, balm for all wounds, asylums for all the unfortunate, and even aid to the point of shedding blood, for all oppressed people on the face of the earth.

    What a nice thought. =) Who wouldn't want to see this happen....

    But where do we draw the resources? Where does this never ending pool of goodness spring from? Individuals themselves, ofcourse.

    So how can these resources be increased by passing through the hands of a parasitical and voracious intermediary?

    Real life socialism: people transformed into petitioners. Landed property, agriculture, industry, commerce, shipping, industrial companies.. all bestiring themselves to claim favors from the state. Everyone has good reasons to prove that legal fraternity should be interpreted in this sense: "Let me have the benefits, and let others pay the costs." Everyone's effort is directed towards snatching a scrap of fraternal privilege from the legislature.. and the suffering classes, although having the greatest need do not have the greatest success.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  2. #42
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Huxley, your writing comes across like you haven't even payed attention to the focus this thread has settled on or the direction it's going in. The very first statement shows that you haven't acknowledged the biggest issue here, that is, determining what is or isn't a socialist economy.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Huxley, your writing comes across like you haven't even payed attention to the focus this thread has settled on or the direction it's going in. The very first statement shows that you haven't acknowledged the biggest issue here, that is, determining what is or isn't a socialist economy.
    No, I very clearly stated that the OP needs to clarify or agree on it.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #44
    Sniffles
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    What exactly do you mean by successful socialist economies? There were some successes in socialist systems, even periods of growth, for example. Although one irony often was that such successes depended upon economic assistances and investments from capitalist countries. This was particularly true with the key role American aid played in the fast development of Soviet industrial capacities.

  5. #45
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    No, I very clearly stated that the OP needs to clarify or agree on it.
    If we haven't done that yet, then how can one skip to demanding an example of a successful socialist economy? At our current position, we can't even provide an example of a successful capitalist economy.
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  6. #46
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Most socialist nations are democratic. The people decide how the government works.

    Why do you draw the line at criminal behavior, infrastructure, and defense? And how can you say there is no incentive to get anything done in a socialist society? I would argue that this is not only wrong, it's exactly opposite of what is actually happening in these nations.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

    Done
    1) you make no argument. just because the United States and most of Europe are have several socialist policies doesn't mean it's effective
    2) I draw the line at criminal behavior because everything past that is not the government's business. what we do, how much money we make, what our livelyhood is, why would
    3) every monopoly in history has been government endorsed (Ayn Rand)
    4) if you give all the power to the state, they WILL abuse it. politicians do NOT have our best interests in mind. one need only here what they say off record
    5) the united states was supposed to be a republic, not a pure democracy. pure democracy is rule by the mob
    6) on that note, just because the people vote for something doesn't make it just. no government has the right to decide who you can marry, what you can wear, which bathrooms you can use (case in point Jim Crow) or how much money you can make no matter how many fools vote for it.
    7) do you know why the Great Depression is the only american depression you here about? it's because it's the only one the government tried to fix
    8) free markets are much more effective because there is actual incentive for success (ie, you make more money)
    9) on a similar note, socialism saps the public of ambition and passion.
    10) on the same note from a scientific perspective, socialism saps the mind of intrinsic motivation (motivation based on interest) because the government decides which occupations are suitable for people
    11) it saps people of extrinsic motivation because they decide how much money you earn and how much you keep
    12) if you look at china's fiscal policies, they are actually much less communist than they are on paper
    13) our poor handling of government has lead to the entire monetary system of the world being based on US dollars which are backed by NOTHING. historically, there have been over 3000 fiat currencies (currencies with no REAL value) and they've all disintegrated via deflation out of existance or hyperinflation and destroyed the entire infrastructure of the country with it. this is the first time in history that EVERY money supply in the developed world is fiat. aka when the dollar inevitably crashes, you are looking at the entire economy of the developed world going down the drain
    14) people cannot be free in a socialist society, are you arguing that people shouldn't be free and should have someone controlling what there livelihood?
    15) socialism gives all the power to the government, if there is even 1 corrupt politician in the mix (there will likely be 100s), they have all the power to do whatever they want to the country.
    16) happiness without freedom is a psychological impossibility

  7. #47
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Date's Incoherence Principle comes to mind.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If we haven't done that yet, then how can one skip to demanding an example of a successful socialist economy? At our current position, we can't even provide an example of a successful capitalist economy.
    I was going with the most basic nature of socialism that I believe almost any definition would incorporate--

    " a set of political and economic theories based on the belief that everyone has an equal right to a share of a country's wealth and that the government should own and control the main industries."

    so any example of a country past or present where the government owns and controls all main industries.. provides equal wealth and services... and retains a high quality of living without financial instability.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  9. #49
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This was particularly true with the key role American aid played in the fast development of Soviet industrial capacities.
    For those interested:
    Following the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, the Soviet government offered large financial incentives to gain advanced Western know-how and equipment. During Stalin's First Five-Year Plan (1928-33), for example, American firms built, or helped to build, the steelworks art Magnitogorsk in the Ural Mountains, the largest steel complex in the world and a replica of the United States Steel plant in Gary, Indiana; the Dnieper River Dam in the Ukraine, the keystone in the development of Soviet hydroelectric power; the automobile plant at Gorki, east of Moscow, modeled after Ford Motor Company's River Rouge plant; and several large chemical plants.

    The West helped to arm Soviet Russia as well as to industrialize it. In the case of aviation, the German aircraft manufacturer Junkers modernized a prerevolutionary plant at Fili, near Moscow. At an air base at Lipetsk, south of Moscow, German and Russian engineers collaborated, and German and Russian pilots trained together. During this period between the two world wars, the Soviet Union also imported military aircraft from Britain, France, Holland, Italy, and Sweden.3

    Western nations also transferred "dual use" technologies, that is, those with military as well as commercial applications. The Soviet Union used fertilizer plants supplied by the West to produce explosives, machine plants to produce gun barrels, and tractor and automobile factories to produce tanks and armored vehicles. In 1933, the American who served as chief engineer of the Soviet All-Union Construction Trust stated that every tractor plant "is, of course, a tank factory and [every] automobile plant a factory which may at any time produce mobile artillery." Another American engineer reported that in all of the Soviet plants that he visited, at least one department was closed; he noted that he would periodically discover "parts, materials, shells, and acids" with no relation to normal production.4 According to recent émigrés, the Soviet Union still maintains separate military sections in major manufacturing plants.5
    The Impact of Technology Transfer on the Military Balance

    I believe Lenin summed this policy up as "the Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."

  10. #50
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    ^^^

    If what we are talking about doesnt incorporate these ideas, then its not socialism.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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