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Thread: Socialism

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I'm a libertarian socialist.

    I think people should have a lot of social freedom, but I also think anarcho-capitalism is base, animalistic, and immoral...and also kind of idiotic, as putting large numbers of people in poverty increases crime and disease.
    Agreed,

    [YOUTUBE="RxPUvQZ3rcQ"]Chomsky [/YOUTUBE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    INFACT.. regardless of what ever Marxist idealogies get spewn out here.. I'd like to specifically hear from people living in self identified socialist countries.

    People's Republic of China
    Cuba
    Laos
    Vietnam

    Yes... I wonder how many people are on this forum.. or have a computer AT ALL living in these places.
    Sorry Huxley, I know that politics is one of the most reactive things people can disagree upon, and you're a great person but I dont' think anyone here really has the right, that is, a justifiable 'authority' to say unless we are 'there' we can't say anything. Otherwise nothing would get done, and discourse would be extremely limited. In regards to China and Cuba (and myself being of cuban ancestry, like yourself), I know that you want to despise so-called 'communist' regimes, but we have to look at the reality of the situation, China nor cuba and for that matter neither was the soviet union 'communist' in terms of an economic ideal, These three countries, and China being the exemplar of this, are actually state-capitalist and not in fact communist, as the state operates and owns the means of production, though compared to the United States, in which corporations are allowed to distribute these means of production, there is differently a difference between western style and state capitalism of cuba and china, but to say that they are 'communist' isn't accurate, as if we are following traditional marxist perspective, but I would also agree and see your point in assuming that they are, as they do use the market as means to own resources, owning majour corporations. If we are speaking about democratic socialism, I think we have to get past the vast propaganda that has been waged on the term by particularly the McCarthy's and others on the right throughout the decades. Personally I am a libertarian socialist/ anarcho-communist, but we mustn't make the false equivalency that socialism= Iron curtan, you have no freedom, etc. if there is going to be a 'state' IMO, i'd much prefer democratic socialism and workers self management (see below)

    here's an good interview showing the difference between free-market capitalism here in the US, and state capitalism, but no we shouldn't go further by painting these countries as 'communist', Communism hasn't happened as of yet, the closest thing perhaps was Anarchist Catalonia, maybe, from the accounts i've read/seen.

    [YOUTUBE="syvT86-U1Uk"]Interview[/YOUTUBE]



    To those who aren't familiar with Workers self management or participatory democracy, or those whom think it doesn't work, I suggest watching the video below and let go of previous held judgments and beliefs. Also this refutes the claim that there is a monetary incentive for working capacity, I could cite other examples and studies, but I'd have to look for them, as I don't remember them off-hand.

    [YOUTUBE="oyxW4xDq_eE"]Workers Self Mangagement[/YOUTUBE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I doubt anyone here wants to support Cuban, Chinese, or Soviet communism, but thank you for sharing. That must have been hard for your family.

    Oh wait...that one weird guy likes China....
    I agree, It seems that those, including myself who are in support of socialism, we are advocating for something logically sound, and what works in terms of equality, I hate to see the terms socialism = immoral or evil, being thrown around here, it just appeals to fear and embedded false notions, NO ONE here is advocating for the restriction of liberty but neither is the advocacy of some type of authoritarian everyone has an equal shitty standard of living. I think it's a myth that has been tossed around alot in the west, that socialism = soviet poverty or that I won't be able to have a 'good' life, whoever advocates that has either a very naive view of socialism/communism or are just simply ignorant.

  2. #32
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    There's

    so·cial·ism
    noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
    Definition of SOCIALISM
    1
    : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
    2
    a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
    3
    : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done


    and then there is

    social democracy
    noun
    Definition of SOCIAL DEMOCRACY
    1
    : a political movement advocating a gradual and peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism by democratic means
    2
    : a democratic welfare state that incorporates both capitalist and socialist practices


    God kills a kitten every time somebody confuses the two. What the poor, miserable and oppressed people of Northwestern Europe have (famous for their low standard of living) is social democracy type 2 (number one is early 20th century social democracy, number two is later 20th and 21st century social democracy)

    What's so hard about this? Think of the kittens!
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  3. #33
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Social democracy is the only currently viable sociopoliticoeconomic system that treats each of its members with a nominal sense of dignity. It's the only decent form of government that exists on the planet. Authoritarianism of any type unleashes the worst from within us, and capitalism depends on our worst traits to function effectively.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Social democracy is the only currently viable sociopoliticoeconomic system that treats each of its members with a nominal sense of dignity. It's the only decent form of government that exists on the planet. Authoritarianism of any type unleashes the worst from within us, and capitalism depends on our worst traits to function effectively.

    +1 Agreed

  5. #35
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    I prefer to think of it as a continuum applicable to any policy.

    You have one end where some form of public authority controls goods and services for some perceived societal purpose. You have another end where private agents manage goods and services for the sake of profit. One society could be stand at the opposite end on any two matters, and furthermore, there are always ways to stand somewhere between the two ends, and that's where most things are.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    Agreed,

    [YOUTUBE="RxPUvQZ3rcQ"]Chomsky [/YOUTUBE]



    Sorry Huxley, I know that politics is one of the most reactive things people can disagree upon, and you're a great person but I dont' think anyone here really has the right, that is, a justifiable 'authority' to say unless we are 'there' we can't say anything. Otherwise nothing would get done, and discourse would be extremely limited. In regards to China and Cuba (and myself being of cuban ancestry, like yourself), I know that you want to despise so-called 'communist' regimes, but we have to look at the reality of the situation, China nor cuba and for that matter neither was the soviet union 'communist' in terms of an economic ideal, These three countries, and China being the exemplar of this, are actually state-capitalist and not in fact communist, as the state operates and owns the means of production, though compared to the United States, in which corporations are allowed to distribute these means of production, there is differently a difference between western style and state capitalism of cuba and china, but to say that they are 'communist' isn't accurate, as if we are following traditional marxist perspective, but I would also agree and see your point in assuming that they are, as they do use the market as means to own resources, owning majour corporations. If we are speaking about democratic socialism, I think we have to get past the vast propaganda that has been waged on the term by particularly the McCarthy's and others on the right throughout the decades. Personally I am a libertarian socialist/ anarcho-communist, but we mustn't make the false equivalency that socialism= Iron curtan, you have no freedom, etc. if there is going to be a 'state' IMO, i'd much prefer democratic socialism and workers self management (see below)

    here's an good interview showing the difference between free-market capitalism here in the US, and state capitalism, but no we shouldn't go further by painting these countries as 'communist', Communism hasn't happened as of yet, the closest thing perhaps was Anarchist Catalonia, maybe, from the accounts i've read/seen.

    [YOUTUBE="syvT86-U1Uk"]Interview[/YOUTUBE]



    To those who aren't familiar with Workers self management or participatory democracy, or those whom think it doesn't work, I suggest watching the video below and let go of previous held judgments and beliefs. Also this refutes the claim that there is a monetary incentive for working capacity, I could cite other examples and studies, but I'd have to look for them, as I don't remember them off-hand.

    [YOUTUBE="oyxW4xDq_eE"]Workers Self Mangagement[/YOUTUBE]



    I agree, It seems that those, including myself who are in support of socialism, we are advocating for something logically sound, and what works in terms of equality, I hate to see the terms socialism = immoral or evil, being thrown around here, it just appeals to fear and embedded false notions, NO ONE here is advocating for the restriction of liberty but neither is the advocacy of some type of authoritarian everyone has an equal shitty standard of living. I think it's a myth that has been tossed around alot in the west, that socialism = soviet poverty or that I won't be able to have a 'good' life, whoever advocates that has either a very naive view of socialism/communism or are just simply ignorant.
    I'm not sure what led to you believe that I stated no one could discuss this unless they lived there.. I said *I am specifically interested in what people that live in socialist countries have to say about this* Because... I am. I find theorizing about socialism pointless.. and would like to just cut right down to practical examples of what is looks like, and if the people living it prefer it. I think it would be more advantageous. I also mentioned SELF IDENTIFIED socialst countries for a few reasons...
    1) THey are self identified ~ the definition is not in the air..
    2) I do not believe it was my place to assume what type of socialism the OP intended..
    3) I find a big disconnect between socialism in theory and at work. I think this is infact why most people disagree on socialism.. this and a combination of a moral do-goodism idealogy.

    I simply ask anyone to give an example of a socialst country with 1) a high quality of living that is 2) not on the brink of financial dispair.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  7. #37
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    Oh, so self definition is key? As in the German Democratic Republic?
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Oh, so self definition is key? As in the German Democratic Republic?
    It would depend on what the OP intended. Can you offer up an example of a successful socialist country?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  9. #39
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    I can give you examples of attempts at starting a socialist society that were more or less brutally interrupted (often from the outside) or corrupted from the inside before any true implementation occurred.

    Self definition is bs, as I tried to illustrate with my example. What a country calls itself has nothing to do with the theory it implements or claims to implement. That being said, even the failed attepts usually had something to show (like better education and health care, etc). My republican history teacher in the US was very impressed by a conversation with a ´Chinese historian's answer to the question what the main change was that the revolution had brought: "People aren't starving on the streets anymore". Also, economic progress in those countries has to be compared to the pre-experiment situation and perhaps the neighboring countries. I think that for very poor countries, this model might be a good solution.

    As for wealthier, more developed countries, hey, I'm a social democrat, not a socialist.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  10. #40
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Wait, wouldn't that be considered Liberalism?
    I've heard us refered to as Quasi-captialism...but probably mostly referring to the regulation and government interference in economic policy (which is necessary in some cases).
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

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