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Thread: Socialism

  1. #201
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    That's not what I asked. I asked why American citizens might not be sympathetic to capitalism?
    because, with capitalism, the world people live in is the sum total result of each of their individual actions. In other words, capitalism makes people responsible for their own actions, whether they like it or not.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    because, with capitalism, the world people live in is the sum total result of each of their individual actions. In other words, capitalism makes people responsible for their own actions, whether they like it or not.
    Not exactly. We are subject to so much more than our own actions. Just because one takes responsibility for their actions, it does not determine that individual's standing in the world. In a complete vacuum, perhaps within the individual's mind, this could be truth, but the reality is that we are subjected to so many forces that cannot conceivably fall under an individual's responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    because, with capitalism, the world people live in is the sum total result of each of their individual actions. In other words, capitalism makes people responsible for their own actions, whether they like it or not.
    Not at all.

    First of all, it is simply impossible for a human being to an island. From the elements to the way you are influenced by the actions of other human beings from birth, you are neither capable controlling the outcome in your life nor do you ever form a totally independent identity. You can influence it, but you don't totally control, and even the manner in which you can or decided to influence may unwittingly be due to forces beyond your power. There's no political system that can escape this reality.

    Secondly, looking at this less philosophically, capitalism gives people plenty of room to avoid being responsible for themselves, especially one that is completely against regulation. There's nothing stopping someone with slightly more power from taking even more power and then even more power, and exploiting others to their fullest desires. What forces in your world would keep businesses from distorting or concealing information from their consumers, or preventing counter-productive predatory practices? Would prevent a group of firms from colluding in a agreement to provide terrible products and services for absurd prices and hire people for barely livable wages with no hope of advancing? What would prevent the rich from using oh so many different tricks to extort poorer people into indentured servitude?

    You have a baffling idea that no one is going to cheat anyone or power monger in the absence of government regulation. You know what actually happens when you don't have government regulation? Someone fills in the vacuum and institutes the regulations they see fit. The society you propose has already existed multiple times. It was feudalism.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    because, with capitalism, the world people live in is the sum total result of each of their individual actions. In other words, capitalism makes people responsible for their own actions, whether they like it or not.
    agreed

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    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Not at all.

    First of all, it is simply impossible for a human being to an island. From the elements to the way you are influenced by the actions of other human beings from birth, you are neither capable controlling the outcome in your life nor do you ever form a totally independent identity. You can influence it, but you don't totally control, and even the manner in which you can or decided to influence may unwittingly be due to forces beyond your power. There's no political system that can escape this reality.

    Secondly, looking at this less philosophically, capitalism gives people plenty of room to avoid being responsible for themselves, especially one that is completely against regulation. There's nothing stopping someone with slightly more power from taking even more power and then even more power, and exploiting others to their fullest desires. What forces in your world would keep businesses from distorting or concealing information from their consumers, or preventing counter-productive predatory practices? Would prevent a group of firms from colluding in a agreement to provide terrible products and services for absurd prices and hire people for barely livable wages with no hope of advancing? What would prevent the rich from using oh so many different tricks to extort poorer people into indentured servitude?

    You have a baffling idea that no one is going to cheat anyone or power monger in the absence of government regulation. You know what actually happens when you don't have government regulation? Someone fills in the vacuum and institutes the regulations they see fit. The society you propose has already existed multiple times. It was feudalism.
    I disagree with most of this. people are individuals and although some may have better starting circumstances, you can do anything you set your mind to with a little hard work, brains and a lot of discipline. it is true that outside factors can effect one's place in life, but these factors can be overcome. I believe anyone is capable of becoming wealthy and successful. nothing is predetermined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I disagree with most of this. people are individuals and although some may have better starting circumstances, you can do anything you set your mind to with a little hard work, brains and a lot of discipline. it is true that outside factors can effect one's place in life, but these factors can be overcome. I believe anyone is capable of becoming wealthy and successful. nothing is predetermined.
    First of all, no I don't think merit alone can necessarily get you out of being poor.

    Secondly, if you admit at all that people have an inherent advantage based on where they are born, no matter how small, you are admitting to an imbalance that will reinforce itself and get way out of hand if no intervention is taken against it.

    Thirdly, I wasn't strictly talking about whether or not peopel could work their way up from poverty to wealthy. I speaking quite broadly. The statements I made about the mitigations toward will and identity are applicable to every endeavor and caused by far more things than how much wealth one is born with.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #208
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The society you propose has already existed multiple times. It was feudalism.
    Wrong.

    1) Feudalism involves aristocracy and vassals while capitalism is privately owned and operated for profit.

    2) The obligations and relations between lord, vassal and fief form the basis of feudalism while profit is the main goal of capitalism.

    3) Capitalism doesn’t maintain lords and serfs.

    4) In capitalism, the subordinate class has the freedom to demand from the employer.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Not exactly. We are subject to so much more than our own actions. Just because one takes responsibility for their actions, it does not determine that individual's standing in the world. In a complete vacuum, perhaps within the individual's mind, this could be truth, but the reality is that we are subjected to so many forces that cannot conceivably fall under an individual's responsibility.
    "The action required to sustain human life is primarily intellectual: everything man needs has to be discovered by his mind and produced by his effort. Production is the application of reason to the problem of survival . . . .

    Since knowledge, thinking, and rational action are properties of the individual, since the choice to exercise his rational faculty or not depends on the individual, man’s survival requires that those who think be free of the interference of those who don’t. Since men are neither omniscient nor infallible, they must be free to agree or disagree, to cooperate or to pursue their own independent course, each according to his own rational judgment. Freedom is the fundamental requirement of man’s mind.

    It is the basic, metaphysical fact of man’s nature—the connection between his survival and his use of reason—that capitalism recognizes and protects.

    In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate. They can deal with one another only in terms of and by means of reason, i.e., by means of discussion, persuasion, and contractual agreement, by voluntary choice to mutual benefit. The right to agree with others is not a problem in any society; it is the right to disagree that is crucial. It is the institution of private property that protects and implements the right to disagree—and thus keeps the road open to man’s most valuable attribute (valuable personally, socially, and objectively): the creative mind.

    Capitalism demands the best of every man—his rationality—and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him. His success depends on the objective value of his work and on the rationality of those who recognize that value. When men are free to trade, with reason and reality as their only arbiter, when no man may use physical force to extort the consent of another, it is the best product and the best judgment that win in every field of human endeavor, and raise the standard of living—and of thought—ever higher for all those who take part in mankind’s productive activity.

    The economic value of a man’s work is determined, on a free market, by a single principle: by the voluntary consent of those who are willing to trade him their work or products in return. This is the moral meaning of the law of supply and demand.

    Laissez-faire capitalism is the only social system based on the recognition of individual rights and, therefore, the only system that bans force from social relationships. By the nature of its basic principles and interests, it is the only system fundamentally opposed to war.Capitalism has created the highest standard of living ever known on earth. The evidence is incontrovertible. The contrast between West and East Berlin is the latest demonstration, like a laboratory experiment for all to see. Yet those who are loudest in proclaiming their desire to eliminate poverty are loudest in denouncing capitalism. Man’s well-being is not their goal.

    If a detailed, factual study were made of all those instances in the history of American industry which have been used by the statists as an indictment of free enterprise and as an argument in favor of a government-controlled economy, it would be found that the actions blamed on businessmen were caused, necessitated, and made possible only by government intervention in business. The evils, popularly ascribed to big industrialists, were not the result of an unregulated industry, but of government power over industry. The villain in the picture was not the businessman, but the legislator, not free enterprise, but government controls.

    Capitalism cannot work with slave labor. It was the agrarian, feudal South that maintained slavery. It was the industrial, capitalistic North that wiped it out—as capitalism wiped out slavery and serfdom in the whole civilized world of the nineteenth century."
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  10. #210
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    1) Feudalism involves aristocracy and vassals while capitalism is privately owned and operated for profit.

    2) The obligations and relations between lord, vassal and fief form the basis of feudalism while profit is the main goal of capitalism.
    What, pray tell, do you think feudal lords wanted? Do you think they wanted to maintain their system just for its own sake, or just for the hell of it? People wanted material gain out of their subservients. You can give a different name, but a completely unregulated system is going to turn into a similar structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    3) Capitalism doesn’t maintain lords and serfs.
    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    4) In capitalism, the subordinate class has the freedom to demand from the employer.
    That's nice. The employer is not obliged to satisfy those demands, though. Nor is the employer prevented from using any tactic to deceive its subordinates into not understanding that they are being short-changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Laissez-faire capitalism is the only social system based on the recognition of individual rights and, therefore, the only system that bans force from social relationships. By the nature of its basic principles and interests, it is the only system fundamentally opposed to war.
    It doesn't ban force, it simply doesn't use force in any official way. But that leaves anyone else to use force as they please, and they will.

    By the way, I'm going to take the gloves off here and tell you that the content of that lengthy post in response to beargyllz is just idiotically utopian. That you could think any society would live up to that standard, and apparently cannot imagine a reason your policies would not create it, castes your judgment into serious doubt.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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