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Thread: Socialism

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    this is ridiculous. america is not even close to a capitalist society. we currently have no country that is. it is no cop out to say that a government practicing heavy government sponsored corporatism is not a capitialist society. claiming it to be one would be simple ignorance. it is also quite extreme of you to claim that only scientifically proven theories can be used as reason. if such is the case, there has yet to be any reasonable argument posed by or against me. if you have actual concepts and examples to use against my point, I'm more than happy to hear them, but resorting to tactics like "you're slippery" is, well, just not good manners in a debate


    I'm going to have to disagree.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm more than happy to hear them, but resorting to tactics like "you're slippery" is, well, just not good manners in a debate
    I'm sorry if this was not clear, but I am not debating. I am trying to get people to think outside the box. I see the debate about political ideology as being particularly pointless, except when it leads to participants seeking new ideas, well beyond those established ideologies.

    Secondly, I already stated what I believed to be slippery in my original post (which you quoted), yet you proceeded to do it anyway.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post


    I'm going to have to disagree.
    well, when one considers

    - we have thousands of different taxed levied on citizens
    - we have by far the largest national deficit in the world (this does not make it socialist, but capitalist principles would prevent this)
    - he have doubled our national debt via stimulus packages and bailouts
    - the government employs nearly 1/3 of the workforce. in a capitalist society, this would be closer to 1/30
    - this is subjective, but most american society is very entitlement oriented
    - companies are building all their industry overseas because the ridiculously bureaucratic tax structure disincentivizes businesses to build in america
    - more and more rich people are straight up leaving america to go to places where they can invest more freely. rich, enterprising people flock to capitalist countries, not flee them
    - the government is completely in bed with the medical industry giants. that's why we spend such an abhorrant amount on medicare and social security which are driving our debts up like thermometers in a volcano. for example, my friend as cystic fibrosis and the same medicine that costs him $1000 here costs him $2 in parts of southeast asia where medicine is not government sponsored at all
    - the same goes for the auto industry, insurance companies (although they like to look like they're against them) and the banks
    - the federal reserve (which is as federal as federal express) in in charge of our entire monetary policy and they have no accountability to anyone according to both their chariman, Alan Greenspan, and the US government itself.
    - even if income tax is relatively lower in other than other countries, the average american still pays about half their income to taxes of some form or another (sales tax, estate tax, hunting tax, tobacco tax, marriage tax, death tax, etc)
    - again, this is subjective, but americans seem to make many more stupid decisions than other parts of the world because they are not accountable to their own stupidity (everyone else pays for it for them via taxes). this is by our own admittance and several people from overseas I've talked to
    - our government places employeeing people at greater importance than being productive, which as a result leads to millions of paper shuffling jobs that produce nothing and detract from the productive, educated work force

    these are all fundemental, far reaching differences from a capitalist system.
    PS: I'm curious as to your reasons for believing America is a fundementally capitalist system (please don't bring up the constitution, government does not follow this wonderful document anymore unfortunately)

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    I'm sorry if this was not clear, but I am not debating. I am trying to get people to think outside the box. I see the debate about political ideology as being particularly pointless, except when it leads to participants seeking new ideas, well beyond those established ideologies.

    Secondly, I already stated what I believed to be slippery in my original post (which you quoted), yet you proceeded to do it anyway.
    I'm sorry, I wasn't terribly clear myself. I'm not exactly debating either. I'm mostly just providing evidence, asking others for evidence/reasons and evaluating their evidence, which by it's nature is very thorough and requires a rather indepth reply (economics is certainly not child's play). this gives the impression that I am debating, which is mostly untrue. the motive of a debate is like a mental sparring session where you try and "beat" our opponent. while these can indeed be fun and there is an element of it in this thread, my main motivation is as mentioned above. if not, I would not have agreed with several of the previous posts.

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    well, when one considers...
    You are still making the assumption, that given the same initial conditions and general sympathy of the citizens towards capitalism, that the very same system wouldn't arise.

    It is about what political systems can actually be implemented, rather than the pretty (but simplistic and impractical) ideal systems that exist in our minds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    You are still making the assumption, that given the same initial conditions and general sympathy of the citizens towards capitalism, that the very same system wouldn't arise.

    It is about what political systems can actually be implemented, rather than the pretty (but simplistic and impractical) ideal systems that exist in our minds.
    actually, that's one thing that I like about capitalism, it's structure is very simple yet extremely practical and easy to implement. we fail to integrate capitalism because the entire foundation of our country is currently structured around the millions of useless jobs that would be lost if capitalism was indeed implemented.
    PS: american citizens are for the most part not sympathetic towards capitalism. people merely think so because it is the politically correct thing to say. just as it is politically correct to constantly be calling people "racist" when there is indeed very little racism in america (although there is clearly still a little bit)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    PS: American citizens are for the most part not sympathetic towards capitalism.
    Why do you think that is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    Why do you think that is?
    because I know hundreds of self proclaimed socialists and communists and 2-3 self proclaimed libertarians

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    That's not what I asked. I asked why American citizens might not be sympathetic to capitalism?

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