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Thread: Socialism

  1. #181
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    *their

    Like I said, your "proof" is from heavily biased sources. It would be like citing from the Christian Science Monitor or Bitch magazine. You got these articles from places which heavily slant to a particular point of view. It's not like you're posting raw data.

    I don't see that you've actually offered proof of anything, quite frankly, other than you can't make the distinctions between socialism, capitalism, democracy, and a social democracy.

    You essentially look like a rabid anarcho-capitalist to me, not unlike a red paint throwing vegan.

    I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you say you aren't upset, and make attempts to thwart people's opinions based upon their age.

    Your overall tone is very much steeped in rhetoric and emotional appeals, like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or some crazed activist from the liberal side.

    That's why I don't feel inspired to give you any sources, as I also believe what we're saying to you is pretty much self-evident and you're just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your world view.

    You can't show me an example of a nation where Austrian economic theory has met with success in reality, because it's never happened, so demanding proof is really a moot point.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    *their

    Like I said, your "proof" is from heavily biased sources. It would be like citing from the Christian Science Monitor or Bitch magazine. You got these articles from places which heavily slant to a particular point of view. It's not like you're posting raw data.

    I don't see that you've actually offered proof of anything, quite frankly, other than you can't make the distinctions between socialism, capitalism, democracy, and a social democracy.

    You essentially look like a rabid anarcho-capitalist to me, not unlike a red paint throwing vegan.

    I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you say you aren't upset, and make attempts to thwart people's opinions based upon their age.

    Your overall tone is very much steeped in rhetoric and emotional appeals, like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or some crazed activist from the liberal side.

    That's why I don't feel inspired to give you any sources, as I also believe what we're saying to you is pretty much self-evident and you're just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your world view.

    You can't show me an example of a nation where Austrian economic theory has met with success in reality, because it's never happened, so demanding proof is really a moot point.
    If the benefits of socialism are self evident.. why do you think this thread exists Marmie? And asking me to not assume things about you goes both ways.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  3. #183
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    Again you aren't making the distinction between a social democracy, market socialism, and authoritarian socialism.

    I don't see anyone in this thread cheering "YAY AUTHORITARIAN SOCIALISM."

    I think the Third Way is an interesting concept.

    Since we are human, each theory will have flaws, and in my opinion it's important to take a more moderate view to examine the plusses and minuses of each viewpoint, and perhaps construct a better government through mixing the two...which is what the most successful nations in the world are currently doing, which is why I'm saying it's self-evident.

    And please don't tell me that free-market capitalism was a better thing in the past, because the economy in the 19th century was wildly unstable, and even in the 20th century the Great Depression of the 1930's was much more insanely worse than the current reccession...and that's partially thanks to Obama implementing some of FDR's strategies.

  4. #184
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    precisely, which is why I believe acting in one's own self interest first is not only economically feasible, but morally correct. Likewise, I actually believe sacrificing your own needs for the sake of others is not only foolish, but immoral. a society that places the needs of the people above the individual will fall into a wealthfare state, drive up entitlement spending, disincentivize productivity, drive productive individuals away, and eventually lead to economic collapse. that's not to say I think giving is bad, thinking about others is bad or being motivated to serve others is bad, I think these are all wonderful things, but doing them at the wrong time does more harm than good. the only way to foster REAL economic growth is to make sure that both parties win as in a business deal.
    on the same note, that's not to say that I believe people doing harm to others should be allowed, I actually support strong legal reprecutions for such behavior (dealing harm to others needs to be SERIOUSLY more dissincentivized than it is today). I also support more safety regulations on factories and workplace environments than most rightist for this very reason and stricter food processing regulations. that being said, I think this should be done at the state level to prevent the overt federal bureaucracy that exists today in this sector, but I don't think the idea of ensuring a safe work environment and holding businesses accountable for damage they cause goes against capitalism at all
    Whatever you say, Miss Rosenbaum

  5. #185

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    I can't believe this thread has become 19 pages... :/ why feed it? let the thread die, clearly huxley and elfboy aren't going to be persuaded from their opinions, it's gotten to the point of mere trolling now.

  6. #186
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes and no. Socialism and capitalism are built upon similar basic premises, and that does play a key role in this. There's also a mistaken assumption on the part of capitalism advocates that it depends upon "small government". Well the historical record tells otherwise, since capitalism began to emerge with the rise of absolute monarchies, and specifically in the case of England under Henry VIII the massive seizure of church lands and their redistribution among the gentry and the "new men". That's one element in this story.
    Yes, a state provides a primary role, since it is the one who grants and enforces property rights. But this is just one factor and doesn't attempt to explain why this needs to happen in the first place. And why not go all the way towards full socialism? Why have states such as China, former Soviet Union, even Sweden backtracked on their level of state control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Both will fail because all people aren't that moral. Both theories in their extreme form defy human nature and reality.
    And what is that reality? Even a simplistic account will do, but no one seems to even attempt explaining what they mean by this with a little basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - I have quite a bit of basis. I've studied monopolies, the fall of rome, psychology and human motivation. most of the things that are required to be happy do require some amount of money. a comfortable lifestyle requires much more.
    You can't win an argument, nor learn anything by being slippery.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    I can't believe this thread has become 19 pages... :/ why feed it? let the thread die, clearly huxley and elfboy aren't going to be persuaded from their opinions, it's gotten to the point of mere trolling now.
    It's only the second page for me. :p

    I guess some people prefer to argue and pretend they are intelligent, rather than develop original ideas.

  7. #187
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    I can't believe this thread has become 19 pages... :/ why feed it? let the thread die, clearly huxley and elfboy aren't going to be persuaded from their opinions, it's gotten to the point of mere trolling now.
    this isn't trolling it's good conversation. if you go back read my comments you will see that. disagreeing and trolling are not synonymous

  8. #188
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    architectonic
    You can't win an argument, nor learn anything by being slippery.

    "slippery" what on earth do you mean by that?

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    "slippery" what on earth do you mean by that?
    You stated that:
    one cannot use america as an example of a capitalist society because it isn't
    Claiming that a practical example doesn't fully meet an ideal is a cop out, especially when this is still one of the best practical implementations of a particular system. Similarly, ideologues claim the same about Cuba, USSR, China etc., not meeting the ideal and therefore somehow unmentionable in argument. But this is BS as they have failed to appreciated that in reality, maybe it is simply not possible to implement the system as the ideology sets out. What are those limitations I wonder? Yes, human nature is one part, but merely mentioning the words 'human nature' is not an attempt to answer the question.

    Secondly, merely reading literature does not provide any basis. It may provide ideas, but reasonable basis is only provided by scientific theory.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    You stated that:


    Claiming that a practical example doesn't fully meet an ideal is a cop out, especially when this is still one of the best practical implementations of a particular system. Similarly, ideologues claim the same about Cuba, USSR, China etc., not meeting the ideal and therefore somehow unmentionable in argument. But this is BS as they have failed to appreciated that in reality, maybe it is simply not possible to implement the system as the ideology sets out. What are those limitations I wonder? Yes, human nature is one part, but merely mentioning the words 'human nature' is not an attempt to answer the question.

    Secondly, merely reading literature does not provide any basis. It may provide ideas, but reasonable basis is only provided by scientific theory.
    this is ridiculous. america is not even close to a capitalist society. we currently have no country that is. it is no cop out to say that a government practicing heavy government sponsored corporatism is not a capitialist society. claiming it to be one would be simple ignorance. it is also quite extreme of you to claim that only scientifically proven theories can be used as reason. if such is the case, there has yet to be any reasonable argument posed by or against me. if you have actual concepts and examples to use against my point, I'm more than happy to hear them, but resorting to tactics like "you're slippery" is, well, just not good manners in a debate

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