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Thread: Socialism

  1. #151
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    actually I am aware of this, I just stated it less directly
    Actually, you didn't. His philosophy is based on a Christian moral framework where you're actually supposed to put the needs of others before your own needs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think that his philosophy was applicable to his time, but it needs some adjustments to be applicable to ours. Not nearly as much business is conducted face-to-face, today, which makes it a lot easier (morally speaking) to take advantage of others. It's harder to steal candy from a baby if you have to look the baby in the face.
    Agreed. Capitalism on a small face-to-face scale is often more ethical because you know the people you're doing business with, and I believe this is the power behind small business vs. corporations...and to be fair, I believe elfboy mentioned that as well.

    Free-Market Capitalism and Authoritarian Socialism are like two sides of the same coin...they both work more ethically on a small scale, and have huge potential for over-idealization and abuse of power.

  3. #153
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I believe in a blend between capitalism and socialism, or a social democracy, and I love what Sweden and Scandanavian countries have to offer. I also like the structure of the UK for this reason, because while they are capitalism they are more of a social democracy than the United States.

    However, I like many of the freedoms in the United States, and I believe we could potentially have more freedom. It's just that I don't think free-market capitalism is the answer any more than straight up socialism or communism.

    I think that inter-dependence is a perfectly natural and rational way to live. The world is not as black and white as "either I live for myself or I live for you."
    Living for yourself and helping to maintain your surrounding community is actually quite sensible and self-serving. You never know when you may become ill, injured, old, senile, or unemployed yourself. No one person is all-powerful, though a few are more lucky.

    It also decreases crime, ignorance, and disease to think of your community, which also helps yourself in the long run.

    The problem is over-simplifying "me vs. others
    ."
    I agree with the things in bold, and this is precisely why I like capitalism. to trully act in one's own self interest does involve and results in improving the community, helping others and benefiting others. capitalism just stays out of people's way and lets them do this the way they choose. numerous studies have shown that infants and toddlers will want to help out others even with no reward involved, so much as helping others is made easy and doesn't involve them having to sacrifice anything. obviously, this is even more prevelant in adults, except things like bureaucracy get in the way and make it harder and less convenient.

  4. #154
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Actually, you didn't. His philosophy is based on a Christian moral framework where you're actually supposed to put the needs of others before your own needs.
    this is a misconception about christianity. it doesn't necessitate putting other's needs before your own. if you look at all of the characters mentioned in the bible, most of them that God chooses to use are wealthy and successful and would have had to have worked on themselves and their own self interests before deciding to help others.

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    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Agreed. Capitalism on a small face-to-face scale is often more ethical because you know the people you're doing business with, and I believe this is the power behind small business vs. corporations...and to be fair, I believe elfboy mentioned that as well.

    Free-Market Capitalism and Authoritarian Socialism are like two sides of the same coin...they both work more ethically on a small scale, and have huge potential for over-idealization and abuse of power.
    also agreed. this means that modern capitalism necessitates more laws that promote transparency and honesty and make it harder to scam people.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    also agreed. this means that modern capitalism necessitates more laws that promote transparency and honesty and make it harder to scam people.
    Exactly. Which is why anarcho-capitalism is not an option, because many believe there should be no gov't oversight on business at all.

    I think we agree more than it initially appears.

    One must watch the other, that's what I've always thought. Neither the government nor business should be allowed to dominate, there must be a balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    this is a misconception about christianity. it doesn't necessitate putting other's needs before your own. if you look at all of the characters mentioned in the bible, most of them that God chooses to use are wealthy and successful and would have had to have worked on themselves and their own self interests before deciding to help others.
    I take it you've never read the New Testament.

    You also must have missed the "Jesus Others You" lesson in Sunday School.

  8. #158
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Exactly. Which is why anarcho-capitalism is not an option, because many believe there should be no gov't oversight on business at all.

    I think we agree more than it initially appears.

    One must watch the other, that's what I've always thought. Neither the government nor business should be allowed to dominate, there must be a balance.
    I guess the difference is, I don't associate these types of oversights with socialism at all. the economic paradigm behind them is completely different to that of socialism.

  9. #159
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    this is a misconception about christianity. it doesn't necessitate putting other's needs before your own. if you look at all of the characters mentioned in the bible, most of them that God chooses to use are wealthy and successful and would have had to have worked on themselves and their own self interests before deciding to help others.
    Uhh...okay. Whatever you say.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #160
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I agree with the things in bold, and this is precisely why I like capitalism. to trully act in one's own self interest does involve and results in improving the community, helping others and benefiting others. capitalism just stays out of people's way and lets them do this the way they choose. numerous studies have shown that infants and toddlers will want to help out others even with no reward involved, so much as helping others is made easy and doesn't involve them having to sacrifice anything. obviously, this is even more prevelant in adults, except things like bureaucracy get in the way and make it harder and less convenient.
    This is not necessarily true, unless you don't allow people to define their own self interest.

    Our unnaturally large societies (relative to our evolutionary tribal roots) make it difficult, if not impossible, to have an emotional investment in many of the people we deal with. This is a problem for both communism and capitalism.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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