User Tag List

First 4121314151624 Last

Results 131 to 140 of 243

Thread: Socialism

  1. #131
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    2,739

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    You know... your right. Personally, I tend to respect views from people with actual life experience... but i agree that many older people share the same view as Perch, so this is not a good topic to pick on. I retract my opinions on his age having any bearing on current discussion. =)
    Anyone alive has actual life experience.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    MBTI
    HUMR
    Enneagram
    6 sx
    Socionics
    iNfp Ni
    Posts
    1,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Anyone alive has actual life experience.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  3. #133
    Senior Member Perch420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    NiTi
    Enneagram
    5w1
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I am vehemently against your stance, but I am intrigued by your bluntness. (more than) a few questions
    1) how will the economy run?
    2) how can people possibly be happy under such oppressive dictatorial rule?
    3) how will you prevent an uprising?
    4) who would be the dictator?
    5) what is your ultimate objective with this type of government?
    6) how long do you honestly think such a rule could last?
    7) what's to stop the oligarchy members from fighting amongst themselves and/or killing the more power dictator in his sleep?
    8) it is true that morality without religion is not impossible for individuals, but do you really expect a completely atheistic society to be moral at all as a whole?
    9) how are people motivated to do anything?
    10) how would any kind of growth occur past the conception of the oligarchy and dictator?
    11) how do the oligarchal members choose new members?
    12) what if the dictator dies?
    13) what if the dictator goes bad?
    14) would YOU even be happy in this society?
    15) what is more important in life than the happiness you would most certainly take away from everyone?
    16) how can a governmental system be nearly efficient enough to run the entire world without collapsing?
    17) how is any of this possible at all?
    18) do you value human life at all?

    that being said, I think you have the right idea with legalizing drugs, gay marriage and right to bear arms (though this would certainly be a threat to your proposed system lol). these things don't sound very authoritarian to me.
    My keyboard is broken so I'll answer this later (I'm using onscreen; time-consuming + annoying.)
    “Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” - G. K. Chesterton

  4. #134
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    I tend to agree with Huxley and Elfboy. I can't see how socialism would work without perfectly altruistic human beings. I watched that video The World As Will posted about the Argentinian workers who took over their factories, and I think that is a pretty inspiring idea. But I can't help but think that it ONLY worked because they'd essentially hit rock bottom, so they were willing to try anything to keep food on the table. As they were all coming from an equal place, it was easier to think in terms of everyone making equal pay to get by. These were not the factory owners who had this spirit of "a chicken in every pot."

    My dad worked his way up from a grocery bagger to co-own and operate a small chain of convenience stores. It was probably 20 years in the making, and then he worked like a dog for years and years once he was able to buy that first store, barely having a life so he could keep it going and build a productive business, therefore providing comfortably for his family and contributing anonymously to individuals and charities. He eventually made a very nice living, and he paid a lot in taxes. He provided a lot of jobs for unskilled workers. While I personally know what it's like, as an adult, to barely make ends meet, to scrimp and save and wonder if I will make it to the next paycheck, I still don't think it's fair to punish others for working their way up the food chain, and for achieving success in a capitalist society. I don't think that someone who worked for 30+ years to build a business should have to give most of his or her hard-earned money back to the government, nor that someone who has less experience, skill, or willingness to work hard should make the same amount of money. I do wonder where the motivation would be for people like my dad to build a small business up from the ground if there was no monetary reward. He didn't enjoy that job--he told me that when I was going through a personal crisis--he did it because that's where he had the most experience and time put in already. He did it because he knew he'd be able to make a success of it. Who will be the business owners and operators in a socialist society? Will it fall to the government since there's no motivation for people to put in the extra work?
    Something Witty

  5. #135
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    Aeon
    Enneagram
    10w so
    Socionics
    LOL
    Posts
    1,366

    Default

    I challenge you guys to take this discussion towards new directions, new ideas rather than fluff and sentiment we have all heard before ad nauseum.

    Secondly, the slippery redefinition of ideologies when reality doesn't meet your imagination is simply intellectual dishonesty and has nothing to do with political philosophy.

    There are good reasons why almost all western countries have evolved towards mixed economies and it would be nice to know if at least one of you understands some of those reasons why. Oh and fundamentally, this has nothing to do with ideology.

    Stating that it is to do with treating citizens with dignity, or to do with intrinsic motivation is not only weak, but potentially meaningless without further explanation.

    Lastly, I will point out that in principle, there are political systems that are not at all described by our existing political ideologies. We will have to invent new ideologies if/when these alternative systems of organisation are implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You have one end where some form of public authority controls goods and services for some perceived societal purpose. You have another end where private agents manage goods and services for the sake of profit. One society could be stand at the opposite end on any two matters, and furthermore, there are always ways to stand somewhere between the two ends, and that's where most things are.
    I may have misunderstood your point, but as it stands, that appears to be a gross oversimplification, since it misses the fundamental aspect of politics. It is not merely about whether a state or a private corporation controls a particular aspect of the economy. Or public rights for that matter.

    ----------------------
    With regards to Sweden, are people aware of the atrocities that were committed towards people with disabilities. Indeed some people are still badly treated (and I mean that not just in a purely medical sense) by the medical system today in countries like the Sweden, Belgium and the Netherlands (or the UK for that matter). Why does this happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    1) people are more motivated by personal gain than by helping others....and this is a good thing..
    *other points cut to save space*
    Can you actually provide some basis to your points beyond mere assertion?

    1. Amusingly simplistic.
    2. In some ways it is actually easier to start a business in Sweden than the USA, because of streamling.
    3. Again, demonstrate that happiness is proportional to wealth. Or is it simply that living in poverty makes one unhappy due to the stress?
    4. People are more complex than you are insisting and there are many cases where the level of material rewards are not in proportion to the quality (including difficulty) or quantity of work undertaken.
    5. Why is this important though?
    6. It is only win/win on a superficial level. Many people are affected by our purchasing decisions and just because the consumer and the CEO/shareholder may be better off due to a purchase does not mean that all whom are involved are better off. The concept of "free to choose" is an ideological one.
    7. Criminals do plenty of evil without money. Not to mention atrocities during wars, revolutions and coups.
    8. I agree that the more powerful an organisation, the worse the outcomes if it turns bad. But good or bad depends on many things, including how leaders are selected, rather than the leaders themselves.
    9. Again, provide some basis. Strawmans don't make an argument.

  6. #136
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    There are good reasons why almost all western countries have evolved towards mixed economies and it would be nice to know if at least one of you understands some of those reasons why. Oh and fundamentally, this has nothing to do with ideology.
    Yes and no. Socialism and capitalism are built upon similar basic premises, and that does play a key role in this. There's also a mistaken assumption on the part of capitalism advocates that it depends upon "small government". Well the historical record tells otherwise, since capitalism began to emerge with the rise of absolute monarchies, and specifically in the case of England under Henry VIII the massive seizure of church lands and their redistribution among the gentry and the "new men". That's one element in this story.

  7. #137
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    But my point was that money (or wealth, whatever) represents human effort. It can work towards any of these ends you lay out. Hard work that is also enjoyed by the worker does not require a reward, it is entertainment, or self-investment. In effect, the worker rewards himself or herself without need for a 2nd party to intervene.
    but that's just what I'm saying. it doesn't. Warren Buffet does not work thousands of times harder than most people, but he has thousands of times the money (actually millions of times lol). unfortunately, under our current financial setup, money only has value because people are willing to take it.
    PS: if you want comfort, safety, good food, good health, entertainment, high quality standard of living, high quality education for your children, time and money for a long vacation every year and enjoy to pursue a hobby, you need to be pretty damn wealthy, we're talking at least $100,000 a year, preferably $250,000 a year or more.

  8. #138
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    I challenge you guys to take this discussion towards new directions, new ideas rather than fluff and sentiment we have all heard before ad nauseum.

    Secondly, the slippery redefinition of ideologies when reality doesn't meet your imagination is simply intellectual dishonesty and has nothing to do with political philosophy.

    There are good reasons why almost all western countries have evolved towards mixed economies and it would be nice to know if at least one of you understands some of those reasons why. Oh and fundamentally, this has nothing to do with ideology.

    Stating that it is to do with treating citizens with dignity, or to do with intrinsic motivation is not only weak, but potentially meaningless without further explanation.

    Lastly, I will point out that in principle, there are political systems that are not at all described by our existing political ideologies. We will have to invent new ideologies if/when these alternative systems of organisation are implemented.



    I may have misunderstood your point, but as it stands, that appears to be a gross oversimplification, since it misses the fundamental aspect of politics. It is not merely about whether a state or a private corporation controls a particular aspect of the economy. Or public rights for that matter.

    ----------------------
    With regards to Sweden, are people aware of the atrocities that were committed towards people with disabilities. Indeed some people are still badly treated (and I mean that not just in a purely medical sense) by the medical system today in countries like the Sweden, Belgium and the Netherlands (or the UK for that matter). Why does this happen?



    Can you actually provide some basis to your points beyond mere assertion?

    1. Amusingly simplistic.
    2. In some ways it is actually easier to start a business in Sweden than the USA, because of streamling.
    3. Again, demonstrate that happiness is proportional to wealth. Or is it simply that living in poverty makes one unhappy due to the stress?
    4. People are more complex than you are insisting and there are many cases where the level of material rewards are not in proportion to the quality (including difficulty) or quantity of work undertaken.
    5. Why is this important though?
    6. It is only win/win on a superficial level. Many people are affected by our purchasing decisions and just because the consumer and the CEO/shareholder may be better off due to a purchase does not mean that all whom are involved are better off. The concept of "free to choose" is an ideological one.
    7. Criminals do plenty of evil without money. Not to mention atrocities during wars, revolutions and coups.
    8. I agree that the more powerful an organisation, the worse the outcomes if it turns bad. But good or bad depends on many things, including how leaders are selected, rather than the leaders themselves.
    9. Again, provide some basis. Strawmans don't make an argument.
    - you bring up a good point with point 8, but I'm afraid 8 is the only point really relevant to my post
    - with point 2) one cannot use america as an example of a capitalist society because it isn't. if it were, starting a business here would be much easier than in Sweden
    - I have quite a bit of basis. I've studied monopolies, the fall of rome, psychology and human motivation. most of the things that are required to be happy do require some amount of money. a comfortable lifestyle requires much more.

  9. #139
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    What exactly do you mean by "useless"?
    what I mean by useless is working hard and getting little to no benefit from it.

  10. #140
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I tend to agree with Huxley and Elfboy. I can't see how socialism would work without perfectly altruistic human beings.
    The problem is, capitalism also does not work without perfectly selfish human beings. Otherwise, the selfish can simply exploit the altruistic, and this represents a breakdown in the system.

Similar Threads

  1. Introversion vs. Social Anxiety ---- Quiz
    By heart in forum Online Personality Tests
    Replies: 152
    Last Post: 10-04-2017, 10:11 PM
  2. Temperaments (Social Styles)
    By sdalek in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 04-05-2009, 09:30 PM
  3. Suicide and social power
    By labyrinthine in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 09-04-2007, 03:04 AM
  4. Relational Competition and "Social" Bullying
    By Maverick in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 05-24-2007, 08:24 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO