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Thread: Socialism

  1. #121
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I actually agree with a few of his points too (the ones that aren't authoritarian), but the very nature of authoritarianism inevitably disrespects human life. it is impossible to respect people if you are trying to control them and won't except them for what they are. by this logic, I believe that no one who is strongly authoritarian places acceptable value in human life, although I am open to counterpoints
    Authoritarianism does not inherently devalue or disrespect human life. It usually does, but it is not inevitable. It is also suboptimal, so I'll never idealize it.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Um... Perch *seems* to be very intelligent.. but I believe he is a 15 yr old kid... and therefore question his LIFE EXPERIENCE.
    I know someone who is almost 40 with a PhD who shares some of his views, though not as extreme.

  3. #123
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I did not intend to switch your words around. I merely want to know what you perceive as value.
    Fair enough.
    I'm afraid giving an objective definition to such an intuitive concept as value would be rather difficult, but on the most subjective level, I suppose value is something that gives a positive result of some kind. many such results may be comfort, emotional pleasure, physical pleasure, love, material wealth, immaterial wealth, entertainment, etc but hard work for it's own sake is not valuable unless you really enjoy what you do and would be willing to do it without further reward

  4. #124
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I challenge every one of you to define socialism before you comment on it or if you already have.
    Do you want the classical definition or the many common usages?

    As a rule of thumb, I subjectively consider 'socialism' to be the belief that relative material equality is more important than individual liberty and overall prosperity, and that free enterprise and entrepenuership (fundamentally necessary for free societies and material wealth) are morally suspect while government intervention (ultimately based on coercion, which is the entire point of individual rights) is not.

    I'm not a fan; however, I consider the principles behind government policies to be far more important in the long-term than the immediate effects of such policies. Therefore, I'm not strongly opposed to what is internationally known as 'social liberalism,' while I'm very much against what is known as 'social democracy (philosiphically antithetical to the principles I base my life on and on which my country is ostensibly founded),' even though the immediate policy prescriptions are much the same nowadays .

  5. #125
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Fair enough.
    I'm afraid giving an objective definition to such an intuitive concept as value would be rather difficult, but on the most subjective level, I suppose value is something that gives a positive result of some kind. many such results may be comfort, emotional pleasure, physical pleasure, love, material wealth, immaterial wealth, entertainment, etc but hard work for it's own sake is not valuable unless you really enjoy what you do and would be willing to do it without further reward
    But my point was that money (or wealth, whatever) represents human effort. It can work towards any of these ends you lay out. Hard work that is also enjoyed by the worker does not require a reward, it is entertainment, or self-investment. In effect, the worker rewards himself or herself without need for a 2nd party to intervene.

  6. #126
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I know someone who is almost 40 with a PhD who shares some of his views, though not as extreme.
    Okay... I'm not trying to pick on Perch here.... I mean... if your really 15 and capeable of the posts I've seen... MORE POWER TO YOU DUDE! I am simply saying that there is a different persepctive from someone who is 15, has no RL experience with work, taxes, etc.. and someone that has actually worked hard, paid taxes, observed social programs, and has some RL wisdom here... You may know someone thats 40 with a PHD.. you should let THEM speak for themselves though.. =)
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  7. #127
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    What do you mean let them speak for themselves? I was simply refuting your argument that he believes as he does because he's a 15 year old who lacks life experience.

    I've worked and paid taxes and observed social programs, and I'm probably your age (or older).

    RL wisdom is not why you believe as you do. Everyone's experience is different.

  8. #128
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    We want to consider all perspectives, regardless of what experiences that individual is subjected to. In effect, by allowing all experiences, we expand a collective perspective to something far beyond a narrowing of the consideration for perspectives would allow.

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    ^^^
    Agreed.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    What do you mean let them speak for themselves? I was simply refuting your argument that he believes as he does because he's a 15 year old who lacks life experience.

    I've worked and paid taxes and observed social programs, and I'm probably your age (or older).

    RL wisdom is not why you believe as you do. Everyone's experience is different.
    You know... your right. Personally, I tend to respect views from people with actual life experience... but i agree that many older people share the same view as Perch, so this is not a good topic to pick on. I retract my opinions on his age having any bearing on current discussion. =)
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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