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View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

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  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
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Results 261 to 268 of 268

  1. #261
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Actually, you can. You can ask people to put their money where their mouths are. If people are going to hate on corporations, then stop or limit buying their goods and services. It has to happen now while the U.S. continues to be the largest consumer. Otherwise, corporations will find other large consumer bases within the emerging market countries.

    If you recall back maybe a year or so ago, the Obama administration pushed the "Buy American" slogan. It was an attempt to rally the American patriotic spirit so the American people would stop killing their own economy through trade deficits. And bluntly speaking, the Obama admin. has a greater grasp of economics than prior and existing Republican views.
    Yeah, but the thing is... it's not really effective, because very few things are even made here anymore. On many items, you have no choice but to buy something made in China.

    And people are very selfish and short-sighted in general. They're not going to do things to benefit the long-term and everyone else, over themselves and the short-term. That's actually what Adam Smith's theory depends on... the fact that people are selfish. Unfortunately, his theory works.

    Grassroots movements like the "Buy American" thing are doomed to failure. People have been trying that for years before Obama even took office, and it's never taken off. It's just too contrary to human nature. People are capable of movements like that to donate to a charity to help a group of people, or help out with natural disasters... but not with something that isn't immediately visible/tangible.

  2. #262
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, but the thing is... it's not really effective, because very few things are even made here anymore. On many items, you have no choice but to buy something made in China.
    I'm going to jump back in the thread to correct what I view as a common misconception. It's not really true that nothing is made in the US anymore. Even consumer goods are often available american made, it just takes in some cases a bit of hunting. I pretty much buy all my stuff american, and have been pretty successful or the most part. The US is still the world's number one producer of manufactured goods. We don't have as big of a share as we used to, but that's to be expected. We're only number 3 on exports, but that's because we have a huge consumer base to buy our own goods. The United States has many problems, but it's simply not true that we "don't make anything anymore."
    You lose.

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  3. #263
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Grassroots movements like the "Buy American" thing are doomed to failure. People have been trying that for years before Obama even took office, and it's never taken off. It's just too contrary to human nature. People are capable of movements like that to donate to a charity to help a group of people, or help out with natural disasters... but not with something that isn't immediately visible/tangible.
    Of course people are "capable" of it, it's ridiculous to say otherwise. Is it likely that a majority of people will? No, at least not without a more immediate, obvious threat. But everyone is capable of it. Lots of people consciously buy local products, even food products at least in the summer. In some places it is much more convenient than in others to buy locally, of course. Depending on your definition of local. The US and Canada (and other non-sweatshop countries) produce lots of consumer products and food.

    Of course, people living on the current minimum wage salary are unlikely to have the luxury of buying local products. They're more worried about paying the electricity and rent, and buying food, so they can't afford to buy the expensive local soap.
    -end of thread-

  4. #264
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Of course people are "capable" of it, it's ridiculous to say otherwise. Is it likely that a majority of people will? No, at least not without a more immediate, obvious threat. But everyone is capable of it. Lots of people consciously buy local products, even food products at least in the summer. In some places it is much more convenient than in others to buy locally, of course. Depending on your definition of local.

    Of course, people living on the current minimum wage salary are unlikely to have the luxury of buying local products. They're more worried about paying the electricity and rent, and buying food.
    Okay, I guess I used the wrong word. Sorry, my Ti-using friend.

    I mean, sure people could do that, technically, but I just don't see it as reasonable to assume that they will, so long as the threat is in the future and doesn't immediately affect them.

    I don't think that people will buy local goods over foreign goods UNLESS it's more convenient and/or economical for them to do so. I'm just saying that it's too idealistic to assume they'll do it out of patriotism. Especially if American goods suck. For instance, everyone knows that American cars aren't generally as good as Japanese cars, and are the same price or cheaper. Not that it matters anyway, because even "American" cars are usually made overseas, or at least have most of their parts made overseas.

    Food isn't a good example, because most of that is still produced in the US. Also, buying at a farmer's market during the summer is really just a drop in the bucket... agriculture doesn't represent a large amount of money, compared to the cost of things we buy from overseas like microprocessors and such.

  5. #265
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    Intro:
    ..Bypassing Minimum wages law for Business legally
    ..Minimum Wages consequences (benefits and not)
    ..Alternatives
    ..My opinions

    In a short answer: yes.

    Minimum wage should be abolished...for certain jobs.

    Minimum wage is price control, or a price floor to be exact. It creates unemployment.

    So the question, "Should minimum wage be abolished?" is better asked to pick the lesser of two evils: minimum wage (unemployment) or employment (with low wages)?

    ..Bypassing Minimum wages law legally

    The thing is there are "legal" ways to pay lower than minimum wage to "workers".

    The first is unpaid internships. So in essence, unpaid students are legal as long as you call them internships.

    The other is by paying workers by calling them "contractors". By labeling the workers contractors, they business have a smaller tax liability than to workers. After expenses and tax and benefits, the contractor could be paid less than minimum wage.

    Another is hiring part time. Hiring workers at part time would also mean they are exempt from being provided full time benefits.

    The last is... not hiring workers in the US. Or outsourcing. If companies can't make sweat jobs here, they will find it elsewhere.

    ..Minimum Wages consequences

    Lower paid job wages are higher. Jobs who are paid less than the state/city/federal minimum wage have wages increases. Some jobs near the minimum wage also increase so that the jobs are not labeled "minimum wage" jobs. Nearly all other jobs do not increase due to min um wage law. (Some may adjust due to cost of living).

    Goods with a little or no price elasticity of demand will increase. Neutral good. are goods that have a demand that is not dependent to the income. Medical goods are a good example. They will increase. Giffen good and Veblen goods will also increase. (*Cough* Goods for the rich)

    The question is whether normal goods price will decrease. If the total wage as a whole lower, will "everyday" necessity price lower too?

    Assuming that the amount of wage paid is fixed, and wages per person increase, the number of jobs will decrease. Unemployment will increase.

    To work... or not to work.

    Assuming you are laid off, the question to continue to work vs not work is asked. Once Unemployment are used up, Food Stamps, Housing Assistance, and other social services can still remain. The incentive..and laziness of people would cause them to rather not work as long as their basic needs are met. So long term unemployment would increase.



    ..Alternatives to minimum wage

    Basic Income/ Minimum income - Too extreme for the US.

    Negative Income Tax such as the current Earned Income Tax Credit in the US allows certain wage earners to get a refund on all of their federal tax withholding and then some. (Up to $5,666 for 2010 Tax Year).


    ..Compare to other countries with no minimum wage

    "As of January 1st 2011, minimum wages were in place for four groups of construction occupations (construction industry proper, painting and varnishing trade, erection of roof coverings and frames and electrician trade), waste management, industrial and commercial cleaning and long-term care activities in Germany." (Can someone in Germany or read German confirm this?)

    "Many countries, such as Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Italy, and Cyprus have no minimum wage laws but rely on employer groups and trade unions to set minimum earnings through collective bargaining"

    Sweden: 7.9% of the labour force - seasonally adjusted - Jan 2011
    Germany: 6.5% of the labour force - seasonally adjusted - Jan 2011
    Switzerland was last reported at 3.40 percent in February of 2011
    Denmark: 8.2% of the labour force - seasonally adjusted - Jan 2011
    US: 9.5% of the labor force - Not seasonally adjusted - Feb 2011

    Just a snapshot of the unemployment rate for a minute reference as each country unemployment is effected by more things than minimum wage vs no minimum wages.

    ..My opinions

    I think certain jobs should not have a minimum wage including certain unskilled and student internships should be paid something. Now, which jobs are they? I would say the jobs that are currently being paid cash or under the table that would have otherwise be legitimate jobs. So my proposal would not change the wages for anyone currently getting paid a legitimate wage and unpaid internship will start getting paid something, even if its under the minimum wage.

    The thing is, there are people out there willing to work at a lower wage. And they do live in the US. It is similar that to "everyone should go to college". When in reality not everyone should or wants to go to college.

    I voted yes in the poll since it would essentially abolish minimum wage for all.

    I spent too long on this post, and even got logged off twice. So sorry in advance that its not polished enough to convey my ideas effectively.

  6. #266
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    You can't say Italy or Germany have no minimum wage. They technically do not have a universal minimum wage, yet every non-black-market job is regulated by a national standard, which sets a minimum wage for that specific type of activity.
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  7. #267
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're missing the point...

    Perhaps you should read this:

    http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/miwnimum.htm

    I'm pretty sure that everyone on this forum is going to insist on minimum wage, because they think it benefits them in the short-term, when in the long-term... it really doesn't.

    Part of the cause of inflation IS the minimum wage.
    It is what Milton would have said.
    What is a part in the frame of the whole?
    Inflation is a loan.
    One's loss is another's gain.

    State represents either the capital or the society.
    Never both.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You can't say Italy or Germany have no minimum wage. They technically do not have a universal minimum wage, yet every non-black-market job is regulated by a national standard, which sets a minimum wage for that specific type of activity.
    Hi FDG, I never said they did not have minimum wage, but quoted them while looking for other countries policies. I also wrote "
    (Can someone in Germany or read German confirm this?)"
    , so I needed a response like yours to confirm what goes on there.

    Can you explain more about the national standard in those countries? Are all activity blanketed with a minimum wage? If not, which one are not "covered"?

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