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View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

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  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
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  1. #251
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess it's just that I always thought of finances and numbers as such a cold, impersonal, business-like thing... you know what I mean?
    I do. I am a dumbass with money, because it doesn't matter much to me, I give it away to everyone, despite my lack of it. But then I get in trouble. I have been evicted before, and it sucked. That was a wake-up call. I can only imagine what people who are homeless everyday live like. I bet money means a lot more to them. I am still learning its value, now that my self-preservation is on the line. I wish money didn't matter though.

  2. #252
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Tariffs tend to result in punitive actions by other governments, though, in order to recoup their lost profits. Is there any way to solve the problem without damaging our relationships with other countries? We do still need to rely on them for raw resources, even if we're not buying their manufactured goods.
    There is a huge difference between imposing a tariff on manufactured goods, and refusing to export any raw materials, at all, to other nations. Nations which impose tariffs tend to prosper. Nations which do not trade with other nations tend to fail horribly.

  3. #253
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, I guess I just didn't expect this to be a passionate subject. It's about something as mundane as MONEY, What sort of person gets passionate about money?

    I would have to say that you're probably right, that in order to maintain that quality of life, meager as it seems to most of us, minimum wage was necessary. If it hadn't been in place, you wouldn't have been able to make that particular situation work. You probably couldn't have had a car, or lived on your own paying all your bills. And that would have REALLY sucked, yes.

    It's just that... what if the way we've been living isn't sustainable? I mean, we consume a lot more than we produce, because the way we live is a lot more wasteful in terms of resources, than the way a lot of other countries live. Does it suck to live the way those people live? Yes. Should people have to live that way? Probably not. But the question is... how can we go on consuming so much more than we produce? Can we go on living the way that we've been accustomed to living for the last 90 years or so, and how?

    What I want now, if it's possible... is for someone to tell me what, if anything, can be done about our economic situation? We keep going deeper into debt. Jobs are going overseas. More and more people are becoming unemployed. Inflation is making the dollar worthless, so the minimum wage will have to keep rising. Oil is becoming scarce and more expensive.

    My idea was (it no longer is), to eliminate minimum wage so that jobs will no longer go overseas, raise employment, we will produce more of our own stuff so we won't go into debt to other countries so quickly. The downside, of course, is that it could severely reduce our quality of life. People will NOT accept that, and they feel that they should not have to accept it, no matter how bad things get.

    Is there another solution? Like... giving government control of business to force them to create more jobs? Making laws that force companies to maintain a certain percentage of their facilities here in order to do business here? In truth, I don't know what we should do, or if anyone is willing to do what needs to be done before it's too late.
    The answer is there is no easy answer. If there were, I think we'd probably have done it about now. But, fortunately, it isn't impossible to live on one's own. It isn't impossible to get a job. Difficult, yes. But not impossible by any means of the word. If you want to work, you'll find work. It just may not be what you want to do with your life. Lowering our quality of life also means to lower our health standards.. something I don't think Americans can really afford right now.

    I watched a video one time about how a Danish trashman talked about how much he loved his job. I wonder.. how different my life would be, if I could do a job I enjoyed doing.

    Also, I am passionate about money. It allows me to do the things I want to do with my life.. so yes. Many people are touchy about it. Think about the amount of relationship problems that stem from money.
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  4. #254
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Globalisation = economies of scale.

    The U.S. attempted to become the technological brain trust, exporter of intellectual property/services and high end manufactured technological goods, where manual labour was to be supplied by labour cheap countries and commodities by resource rich countries. But it's been trumped by Japan, China, Germany and India. So the net result has been trade deficits which has proven to be unsustainable condition. The U.S. has been beaten at its own game and with so many corporations becoming global conglomerates, corporations have stopped caring about impact since these entities are fully aware that they can shift domiciles if conditions stop being optimal for profit taking within the U.S.

    So what's the solution? Damned if I know. If you make conditions less than optimal for corporations, they'll just redomicile to a less regulated, more tax friendly nation of which there are starving countries more than willing to bow to the corporate yoke if it puts food on tables and money into the pockets of their corrupt politicians (are there any non-corrupt long-term politicians? ) .

    And if you consider it, the American people continue to kill themselves through excessive consumption of cheap imported goods from the same predatory global conglomerates like Walmart.
    That's actually kind of funny... the US isn't really smart enough to be a brain trust. It never has been.

    The only thing we're really good at making compared to other countries are weapons, like guns and nukes... but if there isn't a war, there's no demand for those things. Hmm... I can actually see a solution to that problem, but it seems kind of unethical, and a bit too Orwellian for my tastes (if you've read 1984, you should know what I'm talking about). We would covertly incite other countries to war against each other, and sell weapons to both sides. We could make a killing... literally.

    Yeah, the fundamental problem is that American companies are always undersold by cheaper foreign competitors. And you can't very well ask citizens to buy more expensive American goods in a competitive marketplace.

    It seems like the only possible course that this situation will follow, is to simply allow the whole thing to blow up in our faces, and then people will be unable to buy EXPENSIVE foreign goods anymore (thanks to the worthless US dollar), and we'll all be in so much debt that no one will trade with us anymore. Then I suppose we will be forced to find a way to get by on our own manufacturing capacities. But we'll have shortages of everything, from oil to food, most likely. A lot of people might starve, there could be riots, etc... but perhaps that's what it will take to force them to change.

  5. #255
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It isn't impossible to get a job. Difficult, yes. But not impossible by any means of the word. If you want to work, you'll find work. It just may not be what you want to do with your life.
    I disagree. But you're entitled to your opinion of the unemployed as merely lazy and unmotivated, I guess.
    Lowering our quality of life also means to lower our health standards.. something I don't think Americans can really afford right now.
    Why do you feel that health standards are the biggest problem facing this country right now, and are something which should not be sacrificed for anything else?

  6. #256
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    It's easier to pay a bill, than to face death (death due to a reluctance to pay bills, no less)

  7. #257
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, the fundamental problem is that American companies are always undersold by cheaper foreign competitors. And you can't very well ask citizens to buy more expensive American goods in a competitive marketplace.
    Actually, you can. You can ask people to put their money where their mouths are. If people are going to hate on corporations, then stop or limit buying their goods and services. It has to happen now while the U.S. continues to be the largest consumer. Otherwise, corporations will find other large consumer bases within the emerging market countries.

    If you recall back maybe a year or so ago, the Obama administration pushed the "Buy American" slogan. It was an attempt to rally the American patriotic spirit so the American people would stop killing their own economy through trade deficits. And bluntly speaking, the Obama admin. has a greater grasp of economics than prior and existing Republican views.

  8. #258
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    There is a huge difference between imposing a tariff on manufactured goods, and refusing to export any raw materials, at all, to other nations. Nations which impose tariffs tend to prosper. Nations which do not trade with other nations tend to fail horribly.
    This is as fallacious as the laisseze-faire over-simplification. Targeted tariffs, under the right conditions (virtually impossible to reliably predict or ascertain, making it largely a matter of politicized trial and error and luck) can have net benifits, particularly in large-market and geographically diverse countries, but making tariffs or equivalent non-tarrif barriers the rule rather than the exception is not conducive to economic growth; you're just making it more expensive to utilize imported materials.

  9. #259
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    This is as fallacious as the laisseze-faire over-simplification. Targeted tariffs, under the right conditions (virtually impossible to reliably predict or ascertain, making it largely a matter of politicized trial and error and luck) can have net benifits, particularly in large-market and geographically diverse countries, but making tariffs or equivalent non-tarrif barriers the rule rather than the exception is not conducive to economic growth; you're just making it more expensive to utilize imported materials.
    As with most policies, we attempt to make the best possible judgment, and taking these circumstances into account is fundamental to their implementation.

  10. #260
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I disagree. But you're entitled to your opinion of the unemployed as merely lazy and unmotivated, I guess.
    There's a huge difference between being lazy and unmotivated and not going to ridiculous means to make a dollar.

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