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View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

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  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
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  1. #241
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    The problem I have with thinking in the long term is that I don't get paid to do that. As in.. I don't get compensated, and given the ability to survive, by complying to things that will benefit the long term.

    I worked back when minimum wage was $5.25 an hour. I had two jobs, went to school full time, and one of my jobs paid twice that amount. With a studio apartment, a shit car that was completely paid-off, the cheapest phone service, internet service, no TV, and conservative energy and water consumption... With all of that, I left to Iraq from that situation with $20 to my name.

    The problem with 'just getting by' is life throws something at you. Like, for example, when your car gets stolen and wrecked and you have to buy a new one that day in order to get to work so you don't lose your job. Or, like right after that the roommate I relied on left and I went from paying half the bills to all of them. Or when unexpected water damage hit while I was away for a weekend from a flaw in the toilet which ruined half of my stuff. Occasionally people get the unfortunate situations I did where my wallet was stolen and soon after I had over 900$ missing from my bank account, which took 60 days to be replaced. That's not even counting times where the weather made the energy bills drive up to unexpected amounts, or when things like your vacuum cleaner breaks and you need a new one.

    I had 16-18 hour days with two jobs and school (so I could get a better job someday and not need two jobs), and I don't count my military service as a job when I say that. Or the freelance side-work I did to make extra money to cover what my two jobs didn't cover. I worked damn hard for everything I had, and there were still times where the neighbor just noticed I was becoming too skinny and started bringing me 'leftovers' (it was obvious she cooked extra food for me..) from her dinners. I had no life, I was isolated from everyone from my schedule to survive. It was not a pretty, or happy, time in my life. At all.

    And that was $5.25 an hour, back in 2006/2007.

    I'm not saying we just keep upping the minimum wage to suit the needs of everyone.. something has to give somewhere, you are right about that. We can't just keep compensating people with gobs of money when the money doesn't mean as much. But I don't think taking away the right to be paid enough to survive (literally to survive) is the answer either.

    Also.. I find it a bit irking that people picked on you with this so much. Your lack of work experience does not make you invalid in proposing theories and discussing them. In some ways you're objective about this because of your lack of experience, whereas I cannot be. Don't ever feel like you can't propose a theory because you'll be attacked, please. But don't get all butt-hurt when you start a topic on a very passionate subject and people become passionate either. Don't get all meek when you start the fire and it burns a bit brighter than you expected. You'll be okay.
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  2. #242
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    The following is a chart I made on some relevant economic data; I'm hoping it will help guide the discussion toward a more fact-based form. I will post ITT in the near future after I read up a bit on the theory and international data surrounding wage controls.

    For those of you who care, the index year is 2005.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #243
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I worked back when minimum wage was $5.25 an hour. I had two jobs, went to school full time, and one of my jobs paid twice that amount. With a studio apartment, a shit car that was completely paid-off, the cheapest phone service, internet service, no TV, and conservative energy and water consumption... With all of that, I left to Iraq from that situation with $20 to my name.

    The problem with 'just getting by' is life throws something at you. Like, for example, when your car gets stolen and wrecked and you have to buy a new one that day in order to get to work so you don't lose your job. Or, like right after that the roommate I relied on left and I went from paying half the bills to all of them. Or when unexpected water damage hit while I was away for a weekend from a flaw in the toilet which ruined half of my stuff. Occasionally people get the unfortunate situations I did where my wallet was stolen and soon after I had over 900$ missing from my bank account, which took 60 days to be replaced. That's not even counting times where the weather made the energy bills drive up to unexpected amounts, or when things like your vacuum cleaner breaks and you need a new one.

    I had 16-18 hour days with two jobs and school (so I could get a better job someday and not need two jobs), and I don't count my military service as a job when I say that. Or the freelance side-work I did to make extra money to cover what my two jobs didn't cover. I worked damn hard for everything I had, and there were still times where the neighbor just noticed I was becoming too skinny and started bringing me 'leftovers' (it was obvious she cooked extra food for me..) from her dinners. I had no life, I was isolated from everyone from my schedule to survive. It was not a pretty, or happy, time in my life. At all.

    And that was $5.25 an hour, back in 2006/2007.

    I'm not saying we just keep upping the minimum wage to suit the needs of everyone.. something has to give somewhere, you are right about that. We can't just keep compensating people with gobs of money when the money doesn't mean as much. But I don't think taking away the right to be paid enough to survive (literally to survive) is the answer either.

    Also.. I find it a bit irking that people picked on you with this so much. Your lack of work experience does not make you invalid in proposing theories and discussing them. In some ways you're objective about this because of your lack of experience, whereas I cannot be. Don't ever feel like you can't propose a theory because you'll be attacked, please. But don't get all butt-hurt when you start a topic on a very passionate subject and people become passionate either. Don't get all meek when you start the fire and it burns a bit brighter than you expected. You'll be okay.
    Well, I guess I just didn't expect this to be a passionate subject. It's about something as mundane as MONEY, What sort of person gets passionate about money?

    I would have to say that you're probably right, that in order to maintain that quality of life, meager as it seems to most of us, minimum wage was necessary. If it hadn't been in place, you wouldn't have been able to make that particular situation work. You probably couldn't have had a car, or lived on your own paying all your bills. And that would have REALLY sucked, yes.

    It's just that... what if the way we've been living isn't sustainable? I mean, we consume a lot more than we produce, because the way we live is a lot more wasteful in terms of resources, than the way a lot of other countries live. Does it suck to live the way those people live? Yes. Should people have to live that way? Probably not. But the question is... how can we go on consuming so much more than we produce? Can we go on living the way that we've been accustomed to living for the last 90 years or so, and how?

    What I want now, if it's possible... is for someone to tell me what, if anything, can be done about our economic situation? We keep going deeper into debt. Jobs are going overseas. More and more people are becoming unemployed. Inflation is making the dollar worthless, so the minimum wage will have to keep rising. Oil is becoming scarce and more expensive.

    My idea was (it no longer is), to eliminate minimum wage so that jobs will no longer go overseas, raise employment, we will produce more of our own stuff so we won't go into debt to other countries so quickly. The downside, of course, is that it could severely reduce our quality of life. People will NOT accept that, and they feel that they should not have to accept it, no matter how bad things get.

    Is there another solution? Like... giving government control of business to force them to create more jobs? Making laws that force companies to maintain a certain percentage of their facilities here in order to do business here? In truth, I don't know what we should do, or if anyone is willing to do what needs to be done before it's too late.

  4. #244
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    Who gets passionate about money? People who aren't financially comfortable, or who remember a time in life when they weren't, or people who know someone who struggles with money.

    Money only doesn't matter when you have it.

    Race only doesn't matter when you're not a minority.

    That's why people get passionate. This isn't a personal attack. It's an explanation.

  5. #245
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Who gets passionate about money? People who aren't financially comfortable, or who remember a time in life when they weren't, or people who know someone who struggles with money.

    Money only doesn't matter when you have it.

    Race only doesn't matter when you're not a minority.

    That's why people get passionate. This isn't a personal attack. It's an explanation.
    I guess it's just that I always thought of finances and numbers as such a cold, impersonal, business-like thing... you know what I mean?

  6. #246
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    No.

    I have a very close personal relationship with money.

    My grandfather did get frustrated with me, though, when I was 14 or 15 and went through an adolescent phase when I thought money didn't matter.

    Turns out he was right.

  7. #247
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess it's just that I always thought of finances and numbers as such a cold, impersonal, business-like thing... you know what I mean?
    That's what they are. Numbers in a server.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #248
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, I guess I just didn't expect this to be a passionate subject. It's about something as mundane as MONEY, What sort of person gets passionate about money?

    I would have to say that you're probably right, that in order to maintain that quality of life, meager as it seems to most of us, minimum wage was necessary. If it hadn't been in place, you wouldn't have been able to make that particular situation work. You probably couldn't have had a car, or lived on your own paying all your bills. And that would have REALLY sucked, yes.

    It's just that... what if the way we've been living isn't sustainable? I mean, we consume a lot more than we produce, because the way we live is a lot more wasteful in terms of resources, than the way a lot of other countries live. Does it suck to live the way those people live? Yes. Should people have to live that way? Probably not. But the question is... how can we go on consuming so much more than we produce? Can we go on living the way that we've been accustomed to living for the last 90 years or so, and how?

    What I want now, if it's possible... is for someone to tell me what, if anything, can be done about our economic situation? We keep going deeper into debt. Jobs are going overseas. More and more people are becoming unemployed. Inflation is making the dollar worthless, so the minimum wage will have to keep rising. Oil is becoming scarce and more expensive.

    My idea was (it no longer is), to eliminate minimum wage so that jobs will no longer go overseas, raise employment, we will produce more of our own stuff so we won't go into debt to other countries so quickly. The downside, of course, is that it could severely reduce our quality of life. People will NOT accept that, and they feel that they should not have to accept it, no matter how bad things get.

    Is there another solution? Like... giving government control of business to force them to create more jobs? Making laws that force companies to maintain a certain percentage of their facilities here in order to do business here? In truth, I don't know what we should do, or if anyone is willing to do what needs to be done before it's too late.
    The government needs to institute some policy that makes it cheaper to build a factory in the US and hire Americans than it is to build a factory in China and hire Chinese. One way to do this is through tariffs, but those can cause a host of other problems.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #249
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The government needs to institute some policy that makes it cheaper to build a factory in the US and hire Americans than it is to build a factory in China and hire Chinese. One way to do this is through tariffs, but those can cause a host of other problems.
    Tariffs tend to result in punitive actions by other governments, though, in order to recoup their lost profits. Is there any way to solve the problem without damaging our relationships with other countries? We do still need to rely on them for raw resources, even if we're not buying their manufactured goods.

  10. #250
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Globalisation = economies of scale.

    The U.S. attempted to become the technological brain trust, exporter of intellectual property/services and high end manufactured technological goods, where manual labour was to be supplied by labour cheap countries and commodities by resource rich countries. But it's been trumped by Japan, China, Germany and India. So the net result has been trade deficits which has proven to be unsustainable condition. The U.S. has been beaten at its own game and with so many corporations becoming global conglomerates, corporations have stopped caring about impact since these entities are fully aware that they can shift domiciles if conditions stop being optimal for profit taking within the U.S.

    So what's the solution? Damned if I know. If you make conditions less than optimal for corporations, they'll just redomicile to a less regulated, more tax friendly nation of which there are starving countries more than willing to bow to the corporate yoke if it puts food on tables and money into the pockets of their corrupt politicians (are there any non-corrupt long-term politicians? ) .

    And if you consider it, the American people continue to kill themselves through excessive consumption of cheap imported goods from the same predatory global conglomerates like Walmart.

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