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View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

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  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
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  1. #221
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    It could theoretically do a lot of different things. It would certainly be inhumane in the short term, and the long term effects are difficult to predict with any level of certainty.
    I think the long-term effects are literally impossible to predict.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    are we forgetting what working conditions were like before labor laws and minimum wage? are we forgetting that abolishing minimum wage means businesses are going to pay less and it's not like oh just take another job and don't work for that company because people don't always have the choice if everyone else is paying a paltry wage. are we forgetting that corporations are greedy? are we forgetting that people who work minimum wage a lot of times take 2nd and 3rd jobs and I'm sure it's not because they love to work that much.

    if you get rid of minimum wage you'll have more people taking government assistance, which will make people mad. and call more people lazy even though they're working their asses off. Getting rid minimum wage will not solve a thing, if anything it will drain government reasources which means higher taxes or more people starving. and no one can survive on $2/hr in this country no one. even with room mates it's not possible.
    I hate most the argument "well, if people don't like it they can refuse to work for it"...but if people HAVE to work low wage jobs to survive, and all gov't assistence is taken way...then these people wouldn't be empowered with those kinds of choices. They'd be so desperate they'd be forced to work under horrific conditions.

    That's why I say many people who believe in anarcho-capitalist libertarianism must be utterly sheltered and upper-middle class to not only have not experienced this themselves (in a country that still has minimum wage and gov't assistence) but also to have apparently never met anyone who is forced to work multiple low wage jobs to survive.

    "Oh they can just choose not to work for companies that treat them badly." Yes, impoverished people have so much choice in regards to survival.

    Will in turn increase crimes. Duh.

    I don't think I could possibly hate anyone more than an anarcho-capitalist because part of what makes them so infuriating is that they have no idea what they're fucking talking about. It's all postulation and theory they dreamed up while sitting in their mom's tv room, or while attending some expensive private college.

  3. #223
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I hate most the argument "well, if people don't like it they can refuse to work for it"...but if people HAVE to work low wage jobs to survive, and all gov't assistence is taken way...then these people wouldn't be empowered with those kinds of choices. They'd be so desperate they'd be forced to work under horrific conditions.

    That's why I say many people who believe in anarcho-capitalist libertarianism must be utterly sheltered and upper-middle class to not only have not experienced this themselves (in a country that still has minimum wage and gov't assistence) but also to have apparently never met anyone who is forced to work multiple low wage jobs to survive.

    "Oh they can just choose not to work for companies that treat them badly." Yes, impoverished people have so much choice in regards to survival.

    Will in turn increase crimes. Duh.

    I don't think I could possibly hate anyone more than an anarcho-capitalist because part of what makes them so infuriating is that they have no idea what they're fucking talking about. It's all postulation and theory they dreamed up while sitting in their mom's tv room, or while attending some expensive private college.
    I would never make those particular arguments.

    In fact, my whole argument was that even poor working conditions were better than having no work. It never even occurred to me that anyone would refuse to work for these employers. It's because people don't have a choice that I thought creating more low-wage jobs would be better than a few people having high-wage jobs, and the rest remaining unemployed, possibly starving in the streets. If they have low wage jobs... maybe they'll still be living in the streets, but they might be able to afford some food.

    I would NOT identify as an anarcho-capitalist.

    *distances self from unfair assumptions*

    If this is the kind of nonsense people are going to associate me with because I questioned the necessity of minimum wage, then forget it, okay? I'll never question it again.

  4. #224
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    I'm not associating it with you. Please don't take it personally because you are the OP. I wasn't directing those statements at you in particular...as an Ne dom we tend to go off on related tangents. I was replying specifically to what prplchknz posted and had no thoughts of attacking you at all.


  5. #225
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I would never make those particular arguments.

    In fact, my whole argument was that even poor working conditions were better than having no work. It never even occurred to me that anyone would refuse to work for these employers. It's because people don't have a choice that I thought creating more low-wage jobs would be better than a few people having high-wage jobs, and the rest remaining unemployed, possibly starving in the streets. If they have low wage jobs... maybe they'll still be living in the streets, but they might be able to afford some food.
    You have a flawed premise, that there aren't enough low-paying jobs. There are plenty of those. It's the middle class jobs that are in short supply. Those are the jobs that are being outsourced and replaced by machines.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #226
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I'm not associating it with you. Please don't take it personally because you are the OP. I wasn't directing those statements at you in particular...as an Ne dom we tend to go off on related tangents. I was replying specifically to what prplchknz posted and had no thoughts of attacking you at all.

    Oh. Well, I'm glad to hear that... thank you.

    Yeah, but because I really DO have so little experience in life, like those people, I wanted to make sure that people didn't associate that with me. I may be inexperienced and detached from reality, but I'm not so naive as to believe that people can just turn down a job if they need one, no matter how badly they're treated or how little they're paid.

  7. #227
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Why? He didn't give one in favour of abolishing it; his argument was that "I can't get a job!!!!!" That's not fair.

    Besides, not wanting people to either die in the streets or rely on government services (thus increasing taxes) is perfectly logical. It's just not the answer Ath was looking for.
    No, that would be a good argument, you just didn't give me any reason to believe that argument.

    Why should I believe that more people would die in the streets because of not having enough money, rather than fewer because the unemployed would be able to get jobs and food?

    Also, I would prefer you didn't call me "he." You don't have to call me "she," if you don't want to, but you could at least call me "it." That would be preferable...

    Oh, and umm... I wasn't in a good mood yesterday when I started this thread. I was sick.

    You know, actually... could you just pretend like I never said anything on this topic at all? If I'd known people were just going to get mad and snark at me, I would have kept the thoughts to myself, and I'm probably going to dismiss them later.

    I take it all back, okay? I believe in minimum wage. It's all my fault, okay? Just leave me alone, everyone...

  8. #228
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    In fact, my whole argument was that even poor working conditions were better than having no work
    See, that's what's faulty here - poor working conditions are not better than having no work. It's just that without work, you starve, so you force yourself into a worse position simply so you can eat. This is how the system is ultimately coercive.

    Low-wage service jobs exist solely to give people money to spend. They produce nothing.

  9. #229
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Low-wage service jobs exist solely to give people money to spend. They produce nothing.
    Bullshit, I pay good money for someone else to assemble my hamburger. Could I do it myself? Of course I could, but someone else produces it for me, and I pay them for this service.

  10. #230
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    Some hamburger assemblers are better paid than other hamburger assemblers.

    And I've noticed that the restaurants who pay their hamburger assemblers more than minimum wage and/or provide them with benefits tend to also have better quality hamburgers.

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