User Tag List

View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

Voters
54. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
First 111920212223 Last

Results 201 to 210 of 268

  1. #201
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    Interesting, I hadn't quite heard it put in those terms. I usually think of wars as stealing/aquiring assets/resources, but I see this time we were preventing the axis from stealing the resources we were stealing/exploiting. I also read something about the US cutting Japan off from Rubber and oil in the pacific (perhaps with the intent of having them attack us first, since neither war would have won political approval).

    But your post made me think in smaller terms of a mob crushing a competitor and taking all his business/territory.
    Just as John McClane says, it's always about the money.

    You're absolutely right - war is nothing but killing people so you can steal their shit. It's abominable, if only in its essential pettiness.

  2. #202
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    11

    Default

    This is o.k.

    We should go ahead and have as many policy experiments while the human species is still the dominant organism for the next 30 years.

    So everyone steal your way to a successful and menial life!!!

  3. #203
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    Okay, let's try to flex some micro-and-macro muscles:

    First of all, from a micro perspective, minimum wage might make sense for the following reason:

    - suppose the demand for workers (supply of work - that's a purely semantic difference) is averagely elastic down to a certain point, let's call it x, and let's suppose x*hours worked=cost of living, yet anything below will not be enough for people to support themselves. Suppose that demand for workers becomes almost infinitely elastic when that point is reached and crossed: employers will find it convenient to a large amount of people for a small wage. Now suppose the supply of workers (demand for work - again, semantics) is averagely elastic down to a certain point, too - let's call it y. Suppose that a certain number of workers absolutely need to work, thus supply will become infinitely inelastic when y is crossed. What happens? Here is a graph of the optimal situation:



    suppose the black curve is the economy's starting point, the red curve will be reached by firm's maximizing their profits. As long as the minimum wage is set in such a way to let the equlibrium point be in the infinitely elastic section of the demand for labor function, quantity is unchanged, since companies will be willing to hire. Yet, if left to their own devices, they will (rightfully, since we can't expect managers and shareholders not to be profit-driven) lower wages down to almost zero. It can be considered an example of monopsony. Notice that since firms still demand labor in a perfectly (infinitely) elastic fashion, their profits will necessarily be above zero, thus this policy will not lead to lower welfare levels.
    However, if minimum wage is set too high, demand for labor will stop matching its supply - whenever the two curves don't cross in their elastic piece - thus carefulness need to be exercised when constructing economic policies, something which is rarely done.

    - from a macro perspective, the situation is more complicated. Suppose minimum wage is abolished, thus firms are allowed to hire accordingly to the "red" demand function.
    Suppose the govt is interested in letting their citizens live, thus it has to provide for them if their wages are excessively low.
    So, the amount of workers whose wage is not enough to make ends meet will either receive welfare checks, or prices of basic commodities will be dampened due to govt intervetion.
    This expenditure has to be financed, thus it must be either levied through taxes, which will burden anyone living beyond minimum wage, or it can be financed by debt.
    Now, here is the catch: as long as dollars are the reserve currency, debt can conceptually not be considered a real liability, since printing dollars leads to an extremely weak devaluation, compared to what would happen to any other currency.
    Thus paradoxically the optimal policy for the USA might be to abolish minimum wage and finance welfare expenditure through debt, while paying underpriced goods from China with its relatively overpriced yuan-pegged dollar; these basic commodities will dampen prices, thus the purchasing power of meagerly paid citizens will be highER.
    Obviously, this policy can only be sustained as long as: - dollars are considered international numeraire; - renmibi / $ is pegged; - many other conditions I can't think about ATM, one of which is an indirect control of oil prices through wars.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #204
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    By the way, clearly my post has many holes:
    - demand for workers might never be perfectly elastic, in which case minimum wage will always lead to lower levels of employment. However, I was trying to focus my analysis on very basic jobs, such as flipping burgers, which I believe do follow this logical structure.
    - govt might not be interested in their citizen's welfare. That generally seems unlikely, since we're dealing with democracies - everyone has a strong interest in their voters' opinion. However, the number of citizens interested by minimum-wage laws might be too small, so parties might not care. IDK about this.
    - financing welfare expenditure via debt is clearly a relatively short-term solution, the only long term solution is extremely strong economic growth coupled with green technology / energy production, which will lower the price of any good whose production needs electricty and/or transportation, which in turn will ampen PPS per capita GDP.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #205
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    eNFP
    Enneagram
    9
    Posts
    901

    Default

    I think this thread annoys me more than RS...lol.
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  6. #206
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Okay, let's try to flex some micro-and-macro muscles:

    First of all, from a micro perspective, minimum wage might make sense for the following reason:

    - suppose the demand for workers (supply of work - that's a purely semantic difference) is averagely elastic down to a certain point, let's call it x, and let's suppose x*hours worked=cost of living, yet anything below will not be enough for people to support themselves. Suppose that demand for workers becomes almost infinitely elastic when that point is reached and crossed: employers will find it convenient to a large amount of people for a small wage. Now suppose the supply of workers (demand for work - again, semantics) is averagely elastic down to a certain point, too - let's call it y. Suppose that a certain number of workers absolutely need to work, thus supply will become infinitely inelastic when y is crossed. What happens? Here is a graph of the optimal situation:



    suppose the black curve is the economy's starting point, the red curve will be reached by firm's maximizing their profits. As long as the minimum wage is set in such a way to let the equlibrium point be in the infinitely elastic section of the demand for labor function, quantity is unchanged, since companies will be willing to hire. Yet, if left to their own devices, they will (rightfully, since we can't expect managers and shareholders not to be profit-driven) lower wages down to almost zero. It can be considered an example of monopsony. Notice that since firms still demand labor in a perfectly (infinitely) elastic fashion, their profits will necessarily be above zero, thus this policy will not lead to lower welfare levels.
    However, if minimum wage is set too high, demand for labor will stop matching its supply - whenever the two curves don't cross in their elastic piece - thus carefulness need to be exercised when constructing economic policies, something which is rarely done.

    - from a macro perspective, the situation is more complicated. Suppose minimum wage is abolished, thus firms are allowed to hire accordingly to the "red" demand function.
    Suppose the govt is interested in letting their citizens live, thus it has to provide for them if their wages are excessively low.
    So, the amount of workers whose wage is not enough to make ends meet will either receive welfare checks, or prices of basic commodities will be dampened due to govt intervetion.
    This expenditure has to be financed, thus it must be either levied through taxes, which will burden anyone living beyond minimum wage, or it can be financed by debt.
    Now, here is the catch: as long as dollars are the reserve currency, debt can conceptually not be considered a real liability, since printing dollars leads to an extremely weak devaluation, compared to what would happen to any other currency.
    Thus paradoxically the optimal policy for the USA might be to abolish minimum wage and finance welfare expenditure through debt, while paying underpriced goods from China with its relatively overpriced yuan-pegged dollar; these basic commodities will dampen prices, thus the purchasing power of meagerly paid citizens will be highER.
    Obviously, this policy can only be sustained as long as: - dollars are considered international numeraire; - renmibi / $ is pegged; - many other conditions I can't think about ATM, one of which is an indirect control of oil prices through wars.
    This is a very good post, actually. It does seem to logically explain why having minimum wage might be necessary, although it also points out that having it too high is a bad thing. So it may need to exist, but it should definitely be adjusted based on economic conditions (other than just inflation). The real problem with minimum wage is that it's static.

    That was also an interesting theory about putting everyone on welfare and just using debt to finance it, while they make less than minimum wage... that would be pretty awesome if it could work, but I agree that it would probably be a short-term plan.

    I think this is the best post in the thread, and takes the most fair and balanced approach.

    Thank you, FDG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    I think this thread annoys me more than RS...lol.
    Oh, I get it. Very funny.

    RS has retarded views on women that no one agrees with, I have retarded views on economics that no one agrees with.

    Yeah, why don't you all just laugh it up... sigh.

    I'm done replying to this thread. I wash my hands of it. Chances are that I'm totally wrong, and even if I'm not... the responses I'm getting are so disappointing that I don't care if I'm right.

  7. #207
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    eNFP
    Enneagram
    9
    Posts
    901

    Default

    actually, that wasnt it at all, I stated thread, not the OP, nor the one posting it... I specified the whole thread... and that I found it more annoying, people like RS are easier to understand than some of the stuff ive read in here, his views are infuriating, but they dont annoy me nearly as much as some of the stuff ive read in here from some rather intelligent people, on both sides of the debate, I cant really add much though to either side, so I just expressed my annoyance with the thread in general...lol
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  8. #208
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    actually, that wasnt it at all, I stated thread, not the OP, nor the one posting it... I specified the whole thread... and that I found it more annoying, people like RS are easier to understand than some of the stuff ive read in here, his views are infuriating, but they dont annoy me nearly as much as some of the stuff ive read in here from some rather intelligent people, on both sides of the debate, I cant really add much though to either side, so I just expressed my annoyance with the thread in general...lol
    Oh, that. Definitely, this thread is annoying... a lot of people don't look at this very carefully, except for FDG.

    I was never even certain about abolishing minimum wage, I just wanted to hear a good argument against it. Only one poster offered anything resembling one.

  9. #209
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    eNFP
    Enneagram
    9
    Posts
    901

    Default

    yeah, *goes back to his wheat thins and hummus.*
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  10. #210
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    Aeon
    Enneagram
    10w so
    Socionics
    LOL
    Posts
    1,366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Thus paradoxically the optimal policy for the USA might be to abolish minimum wage and finance welfare expenditure through debt, while paying underpriced goods from China with its relatively overpriced yuan-pegged dollar; these basic commodities will dampen prices, thus the purchasing power of meagerly paid citizens will be higher.
    That is exactly what is being done. The minimum wage is set below market rates, it is there simply to stop exploitation of those with disabilities (and to lower child labour).
    (note, by market rates I am referring to supply as well as demand, for anyone who does not realise this)

    Obviously, this policy can only be sustained as long as: - dollars are considered international numeraire; - renmibi / $ is pegged; - many other conditions I can't think about ATM, one of which is an indirect control of oil prices through wars.
    It's not just about oil, it's about resources in general. The economy can in principle survive without oil as there are other sources of energy (we have plenty of coal and fissile material left).
    Secondly if consumer goods are being sourced from foreign trade partners, then those partners must also have access to resources. China of course has been sticking its fingers into supplies of resources all over the world (especially Africa).
    In reality, the policy can only be sustained as long as either:
    (a) USA labour productivity keeps up with worldwide inflation
    (b) labour overseas is excessively undervalued vs (material) productivity.

Similar Threads

  1. Do you think K.U. should be granted permission to bring her poor mother to Japan?
    By Grand Admiral Crunch in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-12-2016, 08:06 PM
  2. What do you think it means to be TRULY good?
    By SecondBest in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 11-06-2010, 03:41 AM
  3. Do you think that MBTI would be a useful tool in criminal profiling?
    By Mr. Sherlock Holmes in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-04-2010, 06:08 PM
  4. Do you think everything that should be done, can be done?
    By ygolo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-18-2008, 12:04 PM
  5. Time to re-evaluate myself (again?) - what do you think I am/could be?
    By TenebrousReflection in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 03-18-2008, 07:22 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO