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View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

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  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
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  1. #181
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I understand that this is true if only one person's wages go down. He's making less, period. But the more people who make less money, the greater the value becomes of that dollar. If you eliminate minimum wage, a lot of people will be making less money, not just a few.
    but there's still that amount of currency floating around out there, only more concentrated in the hands of fewer people...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #182
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    can anyone actually prove for me statistically that there is a correlation between minimum wage rates and unemployment... while taking into account false causalities and such?

    pretty please, since this computer is unfortunatly lacking even Excell as far as stats programs go
    I'm assuming that the logic is that because the wages are "high", the goods produced are too expensive to compete in the global market. Reducing the production costs would make it more attractive to make things in the US (producing jobs) rather than ship the jobs to another country with lower wages. Using manufacturing as an example, but it can be applied to other sectors.
    Last edited by William K; 03-10-2011 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Added quotes to high. I'm not sure if it's really high
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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  3. #183
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I can accept that, but then what happens? You can have the total collapse of one industry, but then others, where demand is higher, will appear to take their place.
    Nope. Here's the pernicious part - because there is a general price deflation, people are going to keep buying less. Why buy today when your dollar is worth more tomorrow? Hoarding goes through the roof.

    Meanwhile, the credit system is in shambles, as the real value of outstanding debts continues to climb. Demand further reduces as debtors severely cut back on their consumption, giving more of their earnings to debt service. Creditors are loath to extend credit, because the rate of default grows extensively. Companies would prefer to sit on their cash reserves and watch them gain in value, as it has much less risk than capital investment, especially since the depreciation rate for capital goods skyrockets during this time. For much the same reason, since industry refuses to expand, no one is hiring.

    It's a nasty, nasty feedback loop. Almost everything about it makes the situation worse. The better ways of combating it have been expansion of infrastructure, so the increase in market size allows inventories to clear faster, and the Second World War, which destroyed about half the productive capacity of the world, solving that problem horrifically, though effectively.

  4. #184
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    That's because the economy demands oil. It's not out of control though, it's just a necessity.
    That's what inelastic demand means. Because it's a necessity, people will pay practically any price you set for it, up to a point, and the quantity demanded will stay nearly the same. Oil is probably the most fucked-with commodity on the planet, because of that necessity.

  5. #185
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    I'm assuming that the logic is that because the wages are high, the goods produced are too expensive to compete in the global market. Reducing the production costs would make it more attractive to make things in the US (producing jobs) rather than ship the jobs to another country with lower wages. Using manufacturing as an example, but it can be applied to other sectors.
    but the increases in prices have been constant over time but the exportation of jobs are a much more recent phenomenon...

    and a nice, detailed correlation between the increases in unemployment rates and the raises in minimum wage is really hard to come by somehow (this includes on the internet as well somehow- as far as more recent data goes )
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #186
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    :nod: I once thought that deflation would be a good thing since what we have will be worth more, but after reading about what happened to Japan...
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  7. #187
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I understand that this is true if only one person's wages go down. He's making less, period. But the more people who make less money, the greater the value becomes of that dollar. If you eliminate minimum wage, a lot of people will be making less money, not just a few.
    No..,nevermind.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  8. #188
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    but the increases in prices have been constant over time but the exportation of jobs are a much more recent phenomenon...

    and a nice, detailed correlation between the increases in unemployment rates and the raises in minimum wage is really hard to come by somehow (this includes on the internet as well somehow- as far as more recent data goes )
    Increases in communications and transportation technology (containerization being a huge one) have lead to the expansion of the labor pool available to process a given resource with minimal increases in price. Since the quantity supplied is much higher, but the demand remains fairly stable, this moves the supply curve to the right, resulting in a lower equilibrium price. It's not that union jobs are too expensive, or that they can't compete on the price point for the finished good (otherwise, they simply wouldn't be able to sell it - you always set at the price which clears the market), it's that they know they can get cheaper labor overhead elsewhere, and the savings leads to higher profitability. Since the general trend has been the concentration of corporate stock shares in the hands of the corporation's board of directors, this leads to higher executive bonuses, rather than the dividends that would be demanded by a more widely distributed stock pool.

  9. #189
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    . The better ways of combating it have been expansion of infrastructure, so the increase in market size allows inventories to clear faster, and the Second World War, which destroyed about half the productive capacity of the world, solving that problem horrifically, though effectively.
    When you put it like that it makes you wonder what the motivations for the big wars really were (not the history book version). Destroying or sabotaging your competition literally.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  10. #190
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Increases in communications and transportation technology (containerization being a huge one) have lead to the expansion of the labor pool available to process a given resource with minimal increases in price. Since the quantity supplied is much higher, but the demand remains fairly stable, this moves the supply curve to the right, resulting in a lower equilibrium price. It's not that union jobs are too expensive, or that they can't compete on the price point for the finished good (otherwise, they simply wouldn't be able to sell it - you always set at the price which clears the market), it's that they know they can get cheaper labor overhead elsewhere, and the savings leads to higher profitability. Since the general trend has been the concentration of corporate stock shares in the hands of the corporation's board of directors, this leads to higher executive bonuses, rather than the dividends that would be demanded by a more widely distributed stock pool.
    of course, one must take free trade agreements and the end of american economic isolationism into account as well (which I've kind of dreaded bringing up because that opens up a whole NEW can of worms )... people are naturally greedy creatures, it's only logical that if left unchecked the more powerful ones are going to make decisions that make themselves even richer even if it is at the expense of others (and if history is any indication as far as economic and political cycles go, potentially at the expense of their own descendants)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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