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View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

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  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
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  1. #151
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    ...and they confuse social democracy (what the weathier European countries have) with socialism (what Cuba claims to have).

    See Socialism thread for definitions and parallel debate going on!
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #152
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, but don't you think that if the minimum wage goes up, they'll try to trim to skeleton crews, and increase standards in order to weed out applicants? Maybe even require an associates degree to get the job, or something.

    It doesn't matter if they have the money to pay it... they'll do everything in their power to avoid paying more people than they have to.
    They trim to skeleton crews now. Just ask my former co-workers. Now you do twice the work for the same pay after layoffs.

    Look the education system is a scam too in some ways. Its a filter for the workforce and now education is a "for profit" industry. You know, its like selling picks and shovels to the gold rush seekers. Just a product of capitalism. Education doesn't guarantee you a job. I have a college degree and it means bumpkiss right now. I know people who have masters degrees without jobs. There are just so many applicants for any given job they are forced to weed out.

    When times are good, they are begging for new employees...we are just in a deep recession. Its good for the execs though. It's really only the unemployed and people who defaulted on their mortgages that are feeling the pain. If you had a job the past 3 years, you would actually be able to buy more house than you could before the collapse.

    Just keep pluggin away. Remember, its not WHAT you know it's WHO you know. Unfortunately I don't know anyone.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  3. #153
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    It works fine in Europe and Cuba (free healthcare)...its part of the natural transition. Capitalism can't last forever without cannibalizing itself or imploding. The game is over when one guy controls/owns everything, but revolution would happen long before that. Problem is people listen to the media demonize Socialism. They confuse socialism with communism and communism/socialism with a socialist/fascist dictatorship.
    Well, honestly my suggestion about lowering/eliminating minimum wage was based on the assumption that the US won't move towards Socialism.

    A minimum wage might be feasible under Socialist conditions, and under Socialist assumptions, but it produces bad results with the free market/capitalist assumptions.

  4. #154
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, honestly my suggestion about lowering/eliminating minimum wage was based on the assumption that the US won't move towards Socialism.

    A minimum wage might be feasible under Socialist conditions, and under Socialist assumptions, but it produces bad results with the free market/capitalist assumptions.
    The nice thing is that we don't have to confine ourselves within theoretical assumptions if reality dictates otherwise.

  5. #155
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yep, that's exactly where I'm coming from. If I want to work for next to nothing... why should I be told that I can't?
    Did you try Walmart? they are known for docking your hours and clocking you out early and keeping you part-time so they don't have to pay you health benefits. Sounds like a perfect fit. Just be clear with them upfront that $3 is all you need.

    Or you can work at a restaurant. They pay $2.13/hr. Just tell them you don't need much in tips and you will set the tables, run the food, bus tables, clean up after shifts and pick up the slack for the slackers on smoke breaks. They will hire you instantly. That is cheaper than hiring an illegal busser at $4.25hr to do the same thing.

    In all seriousness, restaurant jobs are easy to get and pay better than retail when you are desperate or unemployed. You can make $12-20.hr if you work in a busy place and do a good job and have good clientel...not Dennys.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  6. #156
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The nice thing is that we don't have to confine ourselves within theoretical assumptions if reality dictates otherwise.
    That's a really stupid thing to say, considering that those assumptions are what shape policy and the laws, as well as corporate behavior.

  7. #157
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    Yes I think it should be abolished, and replaced with a living wage.

  8. #158
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's a really stupid thing to say, considering that those assumptions are what shape policy and the laws, as well as corporate behavior.
    Not so much. It's the reaction to the exigent circumstances of the day which shapes policy, law and corporate behavior. Theory and ideology only influence those reactions, but there are far deeper factors, such as necessity and psychological biases, that weigh much more heavily.

    Theory and ideology are generally used to justify decisions that a person would have made anyway, for entirely unrelated reasons.

  9. #159
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not so much. It's the reaction to the exigent circumstances of the day which shapes policy, law and corporate behavior. Theory and ideology only influence those reactions, but there are far deeper factors, such as necessity and psychological biases, that weigh much more heavily.

    Theory and ideology are generally used to justify decisions that a person would have made anyway, for entirely unrelated reasons.
    Are you saying that you think that we will move more towards a Socialist paradigm in general due to the demands of reality, but without calling it Socialism?

  10. #160
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Actually all you'd have to do is travel to some of these countries, get hooked up with volunteer organizations who might be able to hook you up with 'home stays' to live with the people, etc. Forget about having to learn the language- you wouldn't have to. Simply visiting these countries and walking around and observing with your own eyes would do a lot. Or meet/hire a local who speaks english reasonably well and who could do some translating.

    The reality is that you'd have to live in that country for quite some time to *really* get a feel for the ins and outs of things, and the cultural reality, as as a tourist who hasn't grown up there or really had all of that engrained, you'll always have a bit of a superficial sense of everything. But regardless, just getting your feet wet would open your eyes to many things that you can't possibly know by sitting in the comfort of your home on a computer in the U.S., theorizing about things you really don't know the reality of.

    You can do pretty much anything - you're just setting up obstacles/excuses as to all the possible reasons why it can't be done, forgetting about all of the ways it can be.
    There was a reality show about this exact experience. It wasn't pretty. They sent these prissy spoiled chicks and a few guys too (middle, upper middle class I assume) to these third world countries to work for a few weeks. The working conditions were deplorable, wages were a joke. They all freaked out of course and wanted to go home. I only saw parts of two episodes and forget the name of the show, but I remember one was a rice paddy in vietnam and one was something in india. I'd love to see Athenian get on this show and watch.

    Or maybe you could replace Karl Pilkington on the next season of An Idiot Abroad.
    That show is pretty funny.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

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