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View Poll Results: Should minimum wage be abolished?

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  • Yes.

    10 18.52%
  • No.

    39 72.22%
  • I don't know.

    5 9.26%
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  1. #141
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Germany has a partial mimimum wage for certain industries and most jobs on production, etc. are covered by collective bargaining. As companies (and even the catholic church!) fire people to reemploy them as temp workers for half their previous salary, even conservatives are starting to see that we need a minimum wage for more industries. The general trend in Germany is towards minimum wage, not against it.
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  2. #142
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    As an earlier poster mentioned, Germany, for one.
    That's because of their generous social welfare program which can no longer be maintained at prior levels. Hence why minimum wage is being discussed.

    http://www.country-studies.com/germa...education.html

    Germany's external public debt is more than a third of the U.S.'s but they have a population of a little over a quarter of the U.S. They're also a net exporter which has slowed down the process of this spiraling cost problem.

    Got another example?

  3. #143
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Of course. I understand this. But then what happens is they lower their prices. Of course assuming static goods prices, nobody could afford to buy anything and productivity would halt, but that wouldn't be the case.
    And because prices go down, they're forced to pay even lower wages, which further reduces demand, which further deflates prices, and so on and so forth.

    It's what made the Great Depression as bad as it was, after all.

  4. #144
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I really feel like there's no logic or long-term thinking behind the opposing argument. I really just can't see it.
    Why doesn't that surprise me. Take an economics course or something. The hell with $4/hr..try surviving on $7 or $10. This is a much more complex issue than just wages being the problem. There are so many variables involved, It goes far deeper than that. It's more about greed and wall street and the corporate structure, income taxes, population growth, demographics and culture (ie: more women in the workforce), illegal immigration, foreign exchange rates and especially inflation. I just read an article recently about jobs coming back to the US...maybe not great jobs, but jobs nonetheless. Hopefully they close up those damn overseas call centers. As other currencies inflate vs. the dollar and wages rise in the exploited countries empires need to find cheaper and cheaper labor sources, til there are none left.

    Someone else said there should be a max cap on what you could earn. I am more inclined to agree with that. The avg. CEO makes 700-1000x what the avg. worker makes. 30 yrs ago it was more like 27x. That is fucking absurd. Then you have these rich fatcats on the boards of multiple companies and are giving huge stakes in each company, while everyone else is scrapping to get by. Our middle class is disappearing.

    Corporations were originally designed for high risk public trust projects like canals, railroads, telecom and large infrastructure development to spread risk, but then people figured out how lucrative they could be while minimizing personal risk and they took over as the preferred business structure.

    There are companies out there where the employees have ownership and pay very good wages equally across the board. Far more than a corporate structure and there is no hierarchy. The story I saw was about a bakery...everyone made at least double minimum wage (if not more) and had a vote in how the business was run, but their strengths were used where they fit best (accounting, marketing, baking, packing, shipping etc etc). Corporates just try to squeeze every penny they can out of labor and are highly efficient at producing economies of scale and cost savings. The problem is they devalue humans into quantitative measures and economic figures. The goal is to win every $ and eliminate all competition, while simultaneously reducing costs to maximize profits, but at some point it becomes counterproductive. What I mean by that is you see what happened to walmart and home depot. They screw their employees and push out the knowledgeable ones and replace them with idiots who make less $ and then you have a backlash and legal battles. Why not just pay your employees a fair wage and reward loyalty instead of putting more cash in the pockets of lawyers and have bad PR? Just imagine the people who would accept $4/hr.

    There are other problems that offshoot the corporate entities pressure to please wall street. CEOs fudge the books the preserve their jobs and unfairly earn more $, stock prices are manipulated and its only the insiders who really profit in the long run, they are irresponsible citizens and pollute and abandon communities, when it servers their selfish needs. I could go on. Anyone who has not seen the movie The Corporation should.


    Whoever said money increases in value is crazy. Some goods might become more affordable over time relatively speaking, therefore making money seem more valuable (electronics come to mind). The US$ is worth about $.03 vs it's value in 1916. Gold was $20/oz. back then too. Coins were silver and gold and copper. Now pennies are made of zinc mostly, because it cost more to make a penny than what it's worth using copper. There are talks of eliminating production of the penny, but the Fed probably fears that might wake up the people to their money becoming even more worthless. Every fiat currency in recorded history has become worthless eventually. If the US$ stops being the world reserve currency and oil stops being traded in $, we will see hyperinflation and the eventual downfall.

    So no, this is a terrible idea. There are some things that just cannot be reversed. Sorry for the long rant.

    Oh and by the way, I am one of those older people who got laid off and is still unemployed. Companies find all kinds of reasons not to hire anyone (age, education, experience, appearance, etc etc). You have no idea what you are talking about. When you can't get a job in your own field of experience, companies that pay lower wages don't want to hire someone they don't think is going to be around for long or is seriously overqualified.

    When I was a teenager, the only people you saw working at McDonalds were teenagers (other than management). Today its illegal immigrants, poor and uneducated and all ages.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  5. #145
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I could probably room with a lot of people if I had to. I can do just about anything if I have to.
    Okay, then... let's ask another question.

    Why is it so ridiculously expensive to "sustain life" in this country? There are workers in other places that are paid far less, and survive on those wages.

    I don't think we're really talking about sustaining life, so much as sustaining QUALITY of life.
    It's called exchange rates. In some places $1 US is a handy sum.

    Yes there are things you can do to "get by" and give up modern conveniences (cell phone, cable tv, internet, car) and many people would be wise to consider this if they can't make their monthly expenses, but cutting the min wage that much would be disasterous (and then we wouldn't have any $ left over to buy the greedy corporations goods and make them rich). There are so many expenses you are not even considering though. Just to say register a car in state is going to cost about $160(that is about a weeks pay with your new min wage (BEFORE TAXES). Then consider health insurance, rent, transportation, uniforms for your burger flipping job, utilities (mine were $450 last month..just for heat/electric)...you get the idea. That $160 a week won't last too long...you'd be better off going on welfare.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  6. #146
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't see anything principally wrong with capping income.
    I didn't think you would.

  7. #147
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Companies are moving their jobs to those other countries, because people here are too greedy and demanding to work for what they're offering.
    No, they are doing it to line the pockets of the shareholders and CEOs. Maybe you can relocate and take one of those jobs?
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  8. #148
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    Maybe you can relocate and take one of those jobs?
    There's an idea.

  9. #149
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    No, they are doing it to line the pockets of the shareholders and CEOs. Maybe you can relocate and take one of those jobs?
    To be honest with you, I've been seriously considering it. I mean, if that's where the jobs are going...

  10. #150
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    If Socialism can work... it would probably fix all of the things that are wrong with the country right now. If it can't, it will probably destroy what's left of it.

    A bold move... hmm. Maybe you should make a thread asking people what they think of Socialism? That would be interesting to see.
    It works fine in Europe and Cuba (free healthcare)...its part of the natural transition. Capitalism can't last forever without cannibalizing itself or imploding. The game is over when one guy controls/owns everything, but revolution would happen long before that. Problem is people listen to the media demonize Socialism. They confuse socialism with communism and communism/socialism with a socialist/fascist dictatorship.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

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