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  1. #51
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, that just seems kind of heartless, doesn't it? Although I can see why it would appeal to a TJ, it's very practical.
    That's heartless, but valuing someone because of social status isn't? You seem to place an inflated value in celebrity.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #52
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, that just seems kind of heartless, doesn't it? Although I can see why it would appeal to a TJ, it's very practical.
    And your method was not heartless? There is probably no nice way to do this.

    I think this is more like the corporate reality. You said celebrities should be valued higher, but does Paris Hilton contribute much to the greater good? A dude who plays a fireman on TV/movies make more money than a real fireman. Its so backwards.

    Insurance companies and corporations value human lives based on their expected life income. Companies calculate the cost of human loss vs. profits in risk management. You see this all the time. They settle out of court for violations/liabilities. There is an acceptable risk/loss limit in everything from mining to war.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post

    I think this is more like the corporate reality. You said celebrities should be valued higher, but does Paris Hilton contribute much to the greater good? A dude who plays a fireman on TV/movies make more money than a real fireman. Its so backwards.
    A fake fireman could inspire millions of people simultaneously, hence the power of the profession. Too many people discount celebrities as being worthless, when in reality, they are incredibly valuable in a large society. The celebrity, as a person, is not necessarily special, but the job they fulfill is essential.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    A fake fireman could inspire millions of people simultaneously, hence the power of the profession. Too many people discount celebrities as being worthless, when in reality, they are incredibly valuable in a large society.
    Celebrity in the 21st century is not what it was in the 20th. These days, any idiot can get his or her 15 minutes of fame through reality TV and sex tapes. On top of that, you've got people like Tom Cruise and Mel Gibson.

    There are certainly people on the other end of the spectrum, like Neil deGrasse Tyson, but he seems to be drowned out by the idiots.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #55
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's heartless, but valuing someone because of social status isn't? You seem to place an inflated value in celebrity.
    Well, it's just that valuing people based on social status seems more natural, because we already do it to some extent anyway. People just naturally tend to judge each other that way. The way that was proposed involved imposing a kind of logical framework onto everyone that didn't feel natural at all. Thus, it seemed more cruel (even though it might technically be more fair) because it isn't in tune with the way societies naturally tend to function and form hierarchies.

  6. #56
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    I don't know. There are other ways to deal with OPEC like alternative energies, conservation, buying from other sources, drilling at home. You could argue pulling our military out of Saudi Arabia and other countries would lead to revolution/instability and bring OPEC down slowly. They need to make money too. Consumption drops with higher prices, so they want to keep it under the tipping point. Basic economics. I remember in 1999 ish oil dropped to $10/barrell from the $60-70 rangeToo . I remember because I lost my shirt on oil drilling stocks. Too much supply on the market. It became unprofitable for them to drill offshore for a while. Don't think that oil and other resources are not kept at artificial demand levels to keep the prices up. That is a known fact. It's all under control of private interests who can sit on reserves and who's objective is to maximize profits. Diamonds are a perfect example. The retail supply is kept at strict levels to prop up prices and make them artificially scarce.
    No doubt that there will be ways to alleviate oil consumption but as of yet, there hasn't been one viable alternative. Or maybe that's the answer. Multiple alternatives with multiple infrastructures and while economies of scale aren't maximised, the potential impact to unemployment numbers might be worth the additional cost. And if these alternative energy sources end up competing, even better for the consumer for a minimal period of time.

    I don't disagree that price fixing happens often in the commodities markets. Governments have a substantial hand in this. Case in point, sugar.

    But OPEC isn't a friend to the U.S. in any way. It's not just dollars and cents. And while the U.S. has its share of responsibility through foreign policy of the past and current, at this point, I'm not convinced that the gap is so easily repairable by reducing military might and presence. The middle east is one hotbed that doesn't take much to fan to flames.

    Strange things can happen. Much of the military spending issue I think has to do with technology and developing WMD that we never use and hopefully will never use. We are generations ahead of our real/imagined enemies. Our actual military presence wouldn't have to change necessarily. We don't have the most troops, we just have more spending/weapons.
    Not certain if the U.S. is as technologically advanced in weaponry, as it was say 15 years ago. You can bet that China has far, far more than is evident. A cagey country with money and cheap labour to burn.
    The Dept. of Defense also has its hands in all kinds of unrelated crap. My ex GF got grants for cancer research funded by the Dept. of Defense. Strikes me as odd. So if they are doing that, imagine all the other stuff they are doing outside of their primary function. Then you have the no-bid contracts, lobbyists, black ops, etc etc. Same deal with Homeland Security. One big bloated beaurocracy.
    It depends on which department the Feds have allocated research grants. It appears that National Defense has the largest R&D budget, bar none. Whether that means that they're responsible for the majority of R&D and in what capacity, I don't have a clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, that just seems kind of heartless, doesn't it? Although I can see why it would appeal to a TJ, it's very practical.
    I just took your thoughts one step further and added a pragmatic component to them.

  7. #57
    Senior Member chachamaru's Avatar
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    How about killing a few hundred military personnel?

    THat should free up the budget.
    a cat is fine too

  8. #58
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    A fake fireman could inspire millions of people simultaneously, hence the power of the profession. Too many people discount celebrities as being worthless, when in reality, they are incredibly valuable in a large society. The celebrity, as a person, is not necessarily special, but the job they fulfill is essential.
    While there may be a little truth to that, I think it has more to do with how much profit it puts in the studio owners pockets from ad revenues. And let's not even get into Rambo vs. Firemen etc. I just picked that out as a random example.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  9. #59
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I just took your thoughts one step further and added a pragmatic component to them.
    I'm confused... are you saying I proposed that idea, and you just phrased it differently?

    If so, I'm kind of shocked that my idea had those implications.

  10. #60
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm confused... are you saying I proposed that idea, and you just phrased it differently?

    If so, I'm kind of shocked that my idea had those implications.
    Social status is an impersonal ranking of worth.

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