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  1. #41
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    So you're saying people are afraid of the potential "truth" that some races might be inherently less intelligent than others? Even the thought that this could potentially be true is RACISM, pure and simple. Such an hypothesis, in fact, could only be formed in the context of a society in which racism existed. So yes, let's all be brave and delve into racist hypotheses under the belief that "it could possibly be true." No one's ever done that before. :rolleyes2:
    See that, Bear?

    That's why the thread needs to be deep-sixed, and why reticence to participate isn't cowardice.

  2. #42
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    http://internal.psychology.illinois....telligence.pdf

    So much for the American Psychological Association.

    But what do they know?! Let the mud-wrestling begin. After all, not discussing a politically delicate but ultimately scientific question that there is no scientific consensus about and about which very few forum members will have solid factual knowledge on the internet with people you don't know would be tantamount to censorship and oppression. We don't want that now, do we?
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  3. #43
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    See that, Bear?

    That's why the thread needs to be deep-sixed, and why reticence to participate isn't cowardice.
    What? It is what it is.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    See that, Bear?

    That's why the thread needs to be deep-sixed, and why reticence to participate isn't cowardice.
    It is a very good point, but I could never condemn anyone for the desire to seek an answer for even the most deluded hypothesis.

  5. #45
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    It is a very good point, but I could never condemn anyone for the desire to seek an answer for even the most deluded hypothesis.
    That's a little lofty for this context, isn't it? He's stated his opinion on an internet forum...it's not like he's conducting an experiment or even doing any research. And isn't it a little naive to believe that ALL hypotheses are worth testing?
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Orangey;1493291]So you're saying people are afraid of the potential "truth" that some races might be inherently less intelligent than others?

    Can you give some other explanation as to why people want to ban a discussion? Because its controversial? Thats ridiculous! You know what makes things controversial and "taboo"... LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. Lack of the details. Not having a full understanding. Not being able to maturely and openly discuss a topic. THIS is what breeds ignorance. Perch wasn't looking for opinions.. everyone knows an opinion doesn't mean crap.. he was looking for proof, science, studies, so why would that bother you? Or anyone for that matter? If you don't think theres a correlation.. post up some proof.. or ignore the topic.. but don't go around insulting and discouraging sincere open discussion!

    Even the thought that this could potentially be true is RACISM, pure and simple.

    Perfect example of a thought police waiving the race card! Thanks Orangey. Why does it have to mean racism? If there are studies that indicate certian races have higher IQ's.. (And there are, the one I looked at showed Asians have an overall advantage of a few points) why would you just jump to the fact that it means RACISM? Why can't it simply mean what it means? A study was conducted that showed a slight advantage? YOUR the one making a connection that a higher IQ correlates to "good" or "superior". You would HAVE to make this connection to attach racism to it. I think thats rather narrow of you!

    Furthermore, there COULD BE some benefits to doing studies on this. Not everyone that wants to know this is looking to develop a superior species and take over the god dam world! When I saw the study showing Asians at an advantage, I naturally looked up other studies.. that indicated it was not a biological factor, but a cultural factor. It had alot to do with the way Asians raise there children. They've found that Westerners highly value individualism.. to the degree that soceity has become a bit "child centric" meaning that the need to alleviate a childs suffering is valued more so than the need to provide information and training.

    Did I walk away from that study and think to myself "I'm not as good as an Asian person" or "This study shows Americans are less" Not at all! It only peaked my curiosity on how intelligence is developed.

    I'd like to add that if a discussion on intelligence and race is going to inflame someone..then perhaps they need to look at their own beliefs. What is it being challenged they they are so uncomfortable with? Why? If you are solid in your knowledge of the topic, and solid on your stance.. then this topic is nothing to fear, is it?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  7. #47
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    and genuninely hope someone is open enough to discuss WHY IQ does or doesn't correlate to intelligence
    Use the forum's search function.

    Mindset, Intelligence, and IQ

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...igence-iq.html

    How do you Judge Intelligence?

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...elligence.html

    Supposed "intelligence" quotient

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-quotient.html

  8. #48
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Perfect example of a thought police waiving the race card! Thanks Orangey. Why does it have to mean racism? If there are studies that indicate certian races have higher IQ's.. (And there are, the one I looked at showed Asians have an overall advantage of a few points) why would you just jump to the fact that it means RACISM? Why can't it simply mean what it means? A study was conducted that showed a slight advantage? YOUR the one making a connection that a higher IQ correlates to "good" or "superior". You would HAVE to make this connection to attach racism to it. I think thats rather narrow of you!
    You need to stop frothing and read more carefully. I know you think you're a crusader for free speech and everything, but (1) I'm not the one who suggested to close this thread down, and (2) I never said that the FACT that races show differences in IQ (in different contexts, and with great variance between contexts, I might add) is racist, I said that the hypothesis mentioned - that these differences are caused by the genetics of a particular race - is racist. See, it's even on Wikipedia. Take a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Furthermore, there COULD BE some benefits to doing studies on this. Not everyone that wants to know this is looking to develop a superior species and take over the god dam world! When I saw the study showing Asians at an advantage, I naturally looked up other studies.. that indicated it was not a biological factor, but a cultural factor. It had alot to do with the way Asians raise there children. They've found that Westerners highly value individualism.. to the degree that soceity has become a bit "child centric" meaning that the need to alleviate a childs suffering is valued more so than the need to provide information and training.
    When did I ever say to stop research?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Did I walk away from that study and think to myself "I'm not as good as an Asian person" or "This study shows Americans are less" Not at all! It only peaked my curiosity on how intelligence is developed.
    Good for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I'd like to add that if a discussion on intelligence and race is going to inflame someone..then perhaps they need to look at their own beliefs. What is it being challenged they they are so uncomfortable with? Why? If you are solid in your knowledge of the topic, and solid on your stance.. then this topic is nothing to fear, is it?
    It's the suggestion, as the OP was wont to make clear, that perhaps it's true that certain races are genetically incapable (meaning, regardless of nurture) of surpassing certain IQ levels (for whatever cockamamie, pseudo-scientific, socio-biological explanation) that is patently offensive. And why is it offensive? Because it's pure racism.
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  9. #49
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Perfect example of a thought police waiving the race card! Thanks Orangey. Why does it have to mean racism? If there are studies that indicate certian races have higher IQ's.. (And there are, the one I looked at showed Asians have an overall advantage of a few points) why would you just jump to the fact that it means RACISM? Why can't it simply mean what it means? A study was conducted that showed a slight advantage? YOUR the one making a connection that a higher IQ correlates to "good" or "superior". You would HAVE to make this connection to attach racism to it. I think thats rather narrow of you!
    Looks like this is where some of the conflict originates:

    racism(ra¦cism)

    Pronunciation:/ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
    noun
    [mass noun]

    *
    the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race , especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
    *
    prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior:

    (Oxford English Dictionary)

    If you focus on the first part marked in dark red, the idea that there could be a significant difference in intelligence based on race is in fact racist by definition. If it should one day be proven that these differences really exist and have a mainly genetic basis, that would only mean thta there is a basis to that part of racism. So far it has not been proven.

    If you focus on the purple part and assume that an idea or a statement has to express superiority of one race over another to be racist, you will not find this problematic as long as you assume that differences in intelligence do not equal superiority of one group. If you consider intelligence to be of great importance and it should be proven that these differences really are genetic in nature (which, I repeat, has not happened yet) that would once again only mean that racism isn't all that bad as it is fully based on empirical evidence i.e. "truth".

    So yes, by any definition, thinking that the theory could be substanciated would be racist. The only difference is that the day that would happen we'd have a paradigm shift and racism would be considered scientifically founded rather than pathetic bullshit born out of insecurities and ignorance.
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  10. #50
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    This is possibly why people of African descent are more athletic; the stresses of the Savannah meant if you weren't fit, you couldn't catch food, and therefore you died.
    Don't forget many African-Americans were bred by slave-owners to be more physically suitable for labor.

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