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  1. #131
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Most of the stuff you are complaining about has nothing to do with supposedly intrinsic racial differences (or this thread, for that matter) and everything to do with the disputed effects of culture and government programs (i.e. nurture). To be blunt, what the 'toxic Christian conservatives' you are complaing about are doing is essentiallty the same thing that you just did toward them. That doesn't mean either of you are necessarily wrong, just that it doesn't qualify as racism.
    Well setting up some group as A. N. Other, the outsider, to demonise and attack can be and is a big part of racialism, when its done with power to back it up it is racism, what you're doing is using ethnic or "racial" criteria as opposed to ideology, religion, sect or something or other.

  2. #132
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    A by word for Awesome muthafuckas you wish were your friends and coming to your birthday party?
    Funny you should mention it... as a matter of fact, a number of them are my friends, and they're in all likelihood throwing me a birthday party this weekend.

  3. #133
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm sorry but saying that black people might be "different" in the sense that they are biologically less capable of scoring as high as "white" people on IQ tests is racism. It's not my own definition, it's just true. Mine was not a reaction to just the fact of "difference," but rather the suggestion that this difference is inherent.

    Saying that black people are genetically less capable of scoring as high as other "races" on IQ tests is the same as saying that black people are dumber than white people.
    These points are only true if you take IQ tests waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.

    Racism is about thinking and acting as if one race is overall superior to another.

    Low IQ =/= dumb

    Higher IQ =/= overall superiority

    Even higher intelligence =/= overall superiority

    Why is this forgotten in like every single thread like this?

  4. #134
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    These points are only true if you take IQ tests waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.

    Racism is about thinking and acting as if one race is overall superior to another.

    Low IQ =/= dumb

    Higher IQ =/= overall superiority

    Even higher intelligence =/= overall superiority

    Why is this forgotten in like every single thread like this?
    It's naive to dismiss the social significance of IQ testing. While it's easy for any of us here to disregard the validity of IQ scores as true measures of intelligence (or for that matter attempt to naively say that having superior intelligence doesn't make one "overall superior"), that doesn't mean that they haven't or wouldn't be used as means for discrimination in all kinds of policy. The United States has a history rife with that sort of shit.

    Moreover, the correlations between IQ and things like school performance or income make it very easy to use these types of studies (where differences are attributed to genetic factors) as arguments in favor of the status quo.
    Last edited by Orangey; 03-09-2011 at 03:38 PM.
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  5. #135
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Most of the stuff you are complaining about has nothing to do with supposedly intrinsic racial differences (or this thread, for that matter) and everything to do with the disputed effects of culture and government programs (i.e. nurture).
    You have to wonder sometimes, like when one person screams "but they're not like every other people", and then another mentions something about what some "sociologists" say, but would't ever come out with what the root problem is, except for a riddle of it either being "racial" or "cultural", and when I gave the benefit of the doubt and went with cultural, that was denied.
    To be blunt, what the 'toxic Christian conservatives' you are complaing about are doing is essentiallty the same thing that you just did toward them. That doesn't mean either of you are necessarily wrong, just that it doesn't qualify as racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Yeah, those 'toxic Christian conservatives'... we all know what they're like...
    I didn't say "toxic conservative Christians", I referred to the atmosphere of those discussions (i.e. "venom"). Unlike them, I'm not labeling the people themselves, and the point was not whether it was racism, but that it is keeping resentment going, where it has eased most everywhere else.
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  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I didn't say "toxic conservative Christians", I referred to the atmosphere of those discussions (i.e. "venom"). Unlike them, I'm not labeling the people themselves, and the point was not whether it was racism, but that it is keeping resentment going, where it has eased most everywhere else.
    Oh!

    Well, in that case...

    ...your equivocation doesn't impress me at all.

  7. #137
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    "Equivocation"; this was just the sort of unfounded accusatory tactic I experienced elsewhere.

    I know, from seeing your posts over time, that you must be conservative. What is your premise? That IQ data is unbalanced, yet people frowned upon that here in the past, so now you are annoyed that it is being discussed again?

    All I did was to mention some beliefs that are prevalent in the conservative movement that I believe pose a problem to race relations. I don't see what the problem with that is. I chose that group, because that was the particular movement I had debates with on this. It's no personal attack on you or anything.
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  8. #138
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Yeah, those 'toxic Christian conservatives'... we all know what they're like...
    Conservative isn't always the right word. If someone wants to change society by imposing more strict religious morality then they are not conservative. Evangelist or fundamentalist, quite possibly however.

  9. #139
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I actually was addressing nonreligious debate, including economics, and even the abortion issue (which was the latest dispute), is often in practice more political than religious. I often point out how devoid of biblical discussion the debates had become. So I used the term "Christian", again, because that just happened to be what most of the boards I debate on identify as.
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  10. #140
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    All I did was to mention some beliefs that are prevalent in the conservative movement that I believe pose a problem to race relations. I don't see what the problem with that is.
    Change 'conservative movement' (which in the context of your post is implicitly 'white') to 'American black culture' and you get the same beliefs you were complaining about; that was my point. You cant dismiss one point of view as illegitimate or 'toxic' while at the same time advocating a view that shares the same essential characteristics, at least not without something more than anecdotal evidence to back up the differentiation.

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