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  1. #31
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    If this crap keeps up, it's going to be that I worked my entire life so I could give not only my taxes to the government, plus my portion of unemployment insurance (which I have only used for two months of my entire life), but they will rob me in addition of the money I was forced to give up in addition that was supposed to help care for me when I'm too old to work. Companies don't give retirement anymore, they give you 401ks. I lost $38,000 of my life savings in the freaking 401k in 2008. I can't bend over much further; it's getting a little more than ridiculous.

    Money for infrastructure does not need to come out of Social Security funds.

    Mess with something else. Don't mess with the money people were forced to pay their entire lives and then say, gee, you know, you're old as dirt and exhausted, but ... I can't figure out a way to get a road built so we're going to put off your time to rest a little until you're 80, how's that? Hopefully by that time you'll be dead and we can just hog your entire contribution.

    Trust me, there won't be roads built with it.

    DUDE, are you serious? The problem is either I have to forfeit the thousands of dollars I gave up in the course of my lifetime of working or else we can't afford DEFENSE? Um ... not to be a hippy about it, but seriously. DEFENSE? The money wasted on defense is an outrage. You want to reform spending, start there, you'll end up with more cash than you know what to do with.

  2. #32
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    I'll suggest that you read through the thread.

    The cuts won't be that bad as long as everything gets put on the table for cuts.

    That's one of the points I'm trying to make here.

  3. #33
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The problem is.... that (without substantial changes) the choice is increasingly becoming one between whether to pay you or whether to pay for things like maintaining highways and bridges, or defense.
    I'd happy to scale our defense spending way down before so-called entitlement spending.

    An idea in regards to medicare, medicaid, chip, the VA and all that other stuff is that it can all be scrapped for one standard, efficient, universal health care system. The the dysfunctional way we've chopped health care into many different systems and programs is the main cost of why it's so expensive. That's why countries that define basic care and then don't even allow medical practices to profit off of it are still spending half as much on health care.

    And, of course, if you have a deficit problem, you can always... raise taxes.

    As for me, I don't consider the deficit our biggest problem. I suspect most Americans don't. Contrary to the narrative that Republicans are projecting, I'm pretty damn sure the Democrats were thrown out because of unemployment rates, not running a deficit. I'd rather bring the jobless rate down, and get the GDP growing fast, and reduce the income inequality in this society, before trying to fight the deficit. And sadly, it must be before, because there's essentially no way to do those things and cut the deficit at the same time.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #34
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    The point I'm making is, mess with the money I have given the government over several decades of work and see what happens. Cut something else, god knows there's plenty of fat.

  5. #35
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    Continue business as usual and see what happens.

    This problem that the deficit poses has been accepted by both sides of the isle (they may not agree on how to deal with it) Magic Poriferan.

    Read the thread.

    The more debt we rack up the more foreign debt holders will suspect our growing inability to pay it.

    The instant they loose confidence in our increasingly weak currency, is the instant our entire house of cards comes crashing down.

  6. #36
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Continue business as usual and see what happens.

    This problem that the deficit poses has been accepted by both sides of the isle (they may not agree on how to deal with it) Magic Poriferan.

    Read the thread.
    I didn't say it wasn't a problem. I, in not so many words, said it was not the most urgent problem, and solving it was unfortunately mutually exclusive to solving more urgent problems.

    And that both sides of the ol' isle agree doesn't really matter to me. Both parties are perfectly capable of disappointing me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #37
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    What problems are more pressing Magic?

    And why?

    PS - and I'm fine with raising taxes as long as the tax rate as a percentage of income is equal across all tax brackets.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Explain to me why when Clinton was in office, we were rolling in money, had a budget surplus. Republicans get into office and drive it all straight to hell. A Democrat gets into office and the Republicans are up on their hind legs talking about the disgraceful state of the budget, when THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPENT THE MONEY. And now you think you can somehow convince me that it's reasonable and there is no alternative but to work people into the ground and to take money from the poor and the elderly and the disabled? Yeah no, sorry.

  9. #39
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Explain to me why when Clinton was in office, we were rolling in money, had a budget surplus. Republicans get into office and drive it all straight to hell. A Democrat gets into office and the Republicans are up on their hind legs talking about the disgraceful state of the budget, when THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPENT THE MONEY. And now you think you can somehow convince me that it's reasonable and there is no alternative but to work people into the ground and to take money from the poor and the elderly and the disabled? Yeah no, sorry.
    Although one would not get this from the title or OP, when I pressed Disco he implied that there were a lot of federal programs and methods that needed drastic change, but that social security isn't really the big problem.

    Disco and I might disagree on how much needs to be cut from programs like social security (I say, probably none if we do everything else right).
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  10. #40
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What problems are more pressing Magic?
    I already stated that I consider the high unemployment and slow economic growth are bigger problems (but let's count them as one since they are rather related), and I consider the degree of economic inequality we have in our society a bigger problem.

    In a much broader, more indirect way, I'd say things like the oncoming energy crisis or environmental catastrophe are also bigger problems, and you're definitely not going to address that while focusing on cutting the deficit. But that's a different sort of thing so I won't discuss those.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And why?
    Okay, regarding the growth and employment problem. I said that it's mutually exclusive to cutting the deficit right? So we can only fix one problem at a time. So if you want to cut the deficit, you're putting growing the economy and bringing back jobs on hold (because having the economy outgrow this debt is absurdly unrealistic and it usually is with any deficit worth giving a damn about). That's bad. There's no quick way to get rid of the deficit. That means you're looking at a very lengthy period of time where you are letting the economy stagnate or shrink. And at that very same time, rather than making the infrastructure stronger, or people healthier or more educated, you're making it all less so with spending cuts. You're basically walking the country into a cold death.

    On the other hand, if you can get the economy booming again, not just in the short term, but with changes that will effect the long-term, you can make-up for the debt you had at the time that you were trying to bring about the boom. It's pretty basic that you spend on a bust and save on a boom.

    As for the economic inequality... I could explain why, but it would be a very long thing to write.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    PS - and I'm fine with raising taxes as long as the tax rate as a percentage of income is equal across all tax brackets.
    Well we disagree. I like hyper-progressive taxation.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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