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View Poll Results: Israel

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  • I am against the formation of the state of Israel and its policies

    12 25.53%
  • I support the formation of Israel and its policies

    16 34.04%
  • Indifferent/other (explain)

    19 40.43%
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Results 41 to 50 of 98

  1. #41
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    I'm contending the whole notion of what a terrorist is. Why is it the US and TERRORISTS or Israel and TERRORISTS. When debating the nature of these conflicts, is the losing side relegated to terrorist status?
    Yes, meanlittlechimp, Palestinian suicide bombers are labeled "terrorists" because Israel in conflict with them and for absolutely no other reason whatsoever. Nothing to do with suicide bombing.



    Quote Originally Posted by chimp
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid
    And finally, do you see a difference between deliberately targeting civilians and targeting terrorists?
    Yes I do. If I attack you first kick you off your land, and round you up like cattle in spangled new "settlements". And the victims disagree with this and "fight" back. Who is the terrorist? The person who struck first and stole the land they lived on for thousands of years, or the people who retaliated as what they see as injustice? Why is the initial land grab never considered terrorism?

    If we invade Iraq, and an Iraq comes up here and blows up buildings here, is that terrorism? While our invasion of the Iraq is not? I just think terrorism is thrown around a lot without ever asking why their "terrorizing" in the first place.
    Without conceding that your historical summary is accurate, your argument is still flawed. You're trying to besmirch one country's current reputation and mischaracterize their military approach based on their (debatable) past actions and decisions. In so doing, you've watered down the definition of "terrorist" to make it seem as though everyone's a terrorist so as to exonerate those who currently practice and preach the deliberate targeting of civilians.

    I haven't said that Israel is free from blame. But one wrong doesn't justify another. It's that twisted logic that perpetuates cycles of violence that we now see in the Middle East. NO ACT, terrorist or not, present or past, justifies targeting innocent civilians. That applies to both Israel and Arab populations. And that's where we diverge: whereas you try to excuse terrorism (see emboldened), I never will.


  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Yes, meanlittlechimp, Palestinian suicide bombers are labeled "terrorists" because Israel in conflict with them and for absolutely no other reason whatsoever. Nothing to do with suicide bombing.

    Without conceding that your historical summary is accurate, your argument is still flawed. You're trying to besmirch one country's current reputation and mischaracterize their military approach based on their (debatable) past actions and decisions. In so doing, you've watered down the definition of "terrorist" to make it seem as though everyone's a terrorist so as to exonerate those who currently practice and preach the deliberate targeting of civilians.

    I haven't said that Israel is free from blame. But one wrong doesn't justify another. It's that twisted logic that perpetuates cycles of violence that we now see in the Middle East. NO ACT, terrorist or not, present or past, justifies targeting innocent civilians. That applies to both Israel and Arab populations. And that's where we diverge: whereas you try to excuse terrorism (see emboldened), I never will.
    I'm not watering down the use of "terrorism" nor am I excusing it. I'm clarifying the mis-use of the word because it's only applied to the losing weaker side. I'm not excusing suicide bombers as non terrorists. I'm saying that, if that's terrorism than so is the other side or.... one can call BOTH acts of warfare and get rid of the use of terrorism altogether. But when ONLY one side is called the terrorist - the side who just got displaced off their land (and are also the ones that are doing FAR more dying); for another group of people who haven't lived in the region in over 2,000 years, is totally fucking absurd.

    So if I understand your argument. If I broke into your house and forced you at gunpoint to live in the basement and this went on for 50 years. You're saying when you try to claw out of the basement and I bash you back down and call you a criminal for not respecting property rights, that's ok? The past is the past? You're saying once I break in and take your house, there is a statue of limitation and if you try to take your house back, two wrongs don't make a right etc?

    If you're saying the Israelis don't kill innocent civilians and therefore they're not terrorists, you're wrong (look up casualties on both sides and tell me no civilians have died on the Arab side - it's not even close). If you're saying they're both terrorists, I agree. If you're saying they're both equally to blame for this mess. I would say most of the blame (though not all), would have to go to the guy who stole the house in the first place (and not the guy living on ratshit, in the basement).

  3. #43
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Firstly, I would like to say the poll is stupid: how can you be for or against the formation of something that has already been formed?

    Secondly, I am for Israel right to exist but not for her policies.






    I am of the opinion that the main aggressor in this conflict is Israel. As for the Palestinians, half a century has passed since they lost their country to terrorists. I for one cannot blame them for holding onto the hope that they may one day be free of the enemy invaders. Palestinians never asked Egypt, Syria and Jordan to interfere with their county, they never asked Israel to use it as an excuse to steal their land.

    You have to understand most Palestinians are not Hamas supporters, but rather their support is an act of desperation. They just want to live in peace and security like anybody else. I think the key word in solving any conflict is "justice". If Israel stops it's injustice towards the Palestinians, lets ordinary Palestinians live with dignity and security, then the conditions generating the suicide bombers will cease, and the blood-letting will stop. If Israel wants to win the heart and minds of the average Palestinian then it has to prove it is serious about peace; Dismantle the illegal settlements it is still building to this day, dismantle the checkpoints, stop the occupation, get rid of the illegal West Bank barrier, and accept a two state solution. As long the West Bank and Gaza are war zones, Israel will be one as well.

    If peace breeds peace then violence breeds violence.

    The USA should stop blindly supporting Israel. How and why it expects to be took seriously as a negotiator in the conflict while at the same time arming Israel is beyond me.

    I am just some guy with a passion for establish peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I am also an optimist and see no reason that will not happen in my life time.
    QFT. A bit optimistic, since questions of Palestinian economy, neighbors using Palestine to weaken Israel, US self interest etc still remain, but still. It is possible.
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  4. #44
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    I don't think that is true, Israel is the only country with Nuclear weapons in the Middle East. It could take out every country in the Middle East and it would still have nuclear weapons left over.
    You don't think that at least one of the dozen or so Arab nations that hate Israel won't have nuclear weapons within a decade? You don't think that at least one of them doesn't have some biological or chemical weapons of mass destruction? I imagine even unaffiliated terrorists could bring down Israel within 10 years!
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  5. #45
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You don't think that at least one of the dozen or so Arab nations that hate Israel won't have nuclear weapons within a decade? You don't think that at least one of them doesn't have some biological or chemical weapons of mass destruction? I imagine even unaffiliated terrorists could bring down Israel within 10 years!
    Sure. But...do you think they could do that in a way that would make Israel unable to retaliate? If they launch/set-off nukes, it is pretty unlikely that Israel won't be able to do the same back to them.....and, even if they couldn't....we probably would.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You don't think that at least one of the dozen or so Arab nations that hate Israel won't have nuclear weapons within a decade? You don't think that at least one of them doesn't have some biological or chemical weapons of mass destruction? I imagine even unaffiliated terrorists could bring down Israel within 10 years!
    Looking at temporal patterns, I find it EXTREMELY dubious that any Arab nation will have a single nuclear weapon within the next decade. Perhaps biological or chemical weapons, but certainly no nukes. And with no nukes, any attack on Israel will most likely be a failure. The Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War have already shown us this.

    Out of curiosity, which Arab country would you think is most likely to gain possession of nuclear weapons within the next decade? Did you have a specific country or set of countries in mind?
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

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  7. #47
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    As for the Palestinians, half a century has passed since they lost their country to terrorists.
    Um, partially wrong. Until the UN partition of 1947, Palestine/Israel was a part of Trans-Jordan. We all know what happened afterward, Arabs launched wars, and lost, and lost territory as well.


    I for one cannot blame them for holding onto the hope that they may one day be free of the enemy invaders. Palestinians never asked Egypt, Syria and Jordan to interfere with their county
    Well, they were considered to be a part of Egypt/Jordan early in their history when the wars were fought..

    they never asked Israel to use it as an excuse to steal their land.
    If you were attacked multiple times, and then gave back what you won from the battle to get peace, wouldn't you eventually give up, and say f*** it, I'm keeping it? Not that they should, but I think that may be part of the (not entirely wrong) mindset.

    If peace breeds peace then violence breeds violence.
    Lets say that both you and your enemy have been fighting, and currently want to kill each other. You both have weapons. Would you drop the gun, sit down, and say, I'd like to be peaceful now? I don't think so.

    I am also an optimist and see no reason that will not happen in my life time.
    I am a realist (I think), we have been fighting for well over 1000 years on and off in the middle east, I don't see them ending now.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member persianeyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I am indifferent. Their policies are, at heart, their business. I can't say that I truly care. I have voted based on the hypothetical assumption that these policies stay within their boundaries.
    YouTube - Michigan's economy tanks while Israel gets 10 billion per/yr

    Well, it has more to do with the US than you might think. Most of American citizans taxes go to Israel.. and what does Israel use it on? We still haven't got an answer from them..

    Very ignorant of all of those who claim that this conflict doesnt affect them...
    Last edited by persianeyes; 03-12-2008 at 12:56 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by persianeyes View Post
    YouTube - Michigan's economy tanks while Israel gets 10 billion per/yr

    Well, it has more to do with the US than you might think. Most of American citizans taxes go to Israel.. and what does Israel use it on? We still haven't got an answer from them..

    Very ignorant of all of those who claim that this conflict doesnt affect them...
    Which is why I voted based upon the hypothetical assumption that their policies stay within their boundaries, which is to say their own nation.

    Obviously, the reality is quite different.

    The fact that American tax money goes to Israel in the first place is more America's problem than Israel's.

  10. #50
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Sure. But...do you think they could do that in a way that would make Israel unable to retaliate? If they launch/set-off nukes, it is pretty unlikely that Israel won't be able to do the same back to them.....and, even if they couldn't....we probably would.
    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    Looking at temporal patterns, I find it EXTREMELY dubious that any Arab nation will have a single nuclear weapon within the next decade. Perhaps biological or chemical weapons, but certainly no nukes. And with no nukes, any attack on Israel will most likely be a failure. The Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War have already shown us this.

    Out of curiosity, which Arab country would you think is most likely to gain possession of nuclear weapons within the next decade? Did you have a specific country or set of countries in mind?
    Hey, I never said anything about the Arab Peninsula surviving. I only said that Israel would be gone in 10 years if we left it alone now. I think that whole region would tear itself apart.

    As far as what countries I think could have nuclear weapons within 10 years, I would say that Iran and Saudi Arabia top the list. Other countries such as Russia and China have been selling nuclear secrets for decades, and they passed those on between North Korea and Iran. Also, it would only take a few nuclear weapons to completely decimate Israel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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