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View Poll Results: Israel

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  • I am against the formation of the state of Israel and its policies

    12 25.53%
  • I support the formation of Israel and its policies

    16 34.04%
  • Indifferent/other (explain)

    19 40.43%
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Results 91 to 98 of 98

  1. #91
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Democracy is the worst political system except for the alternative.
    I thought this was a thread about Israel - not about electoral systems.

    The point I was making is that *democracy* (if you can call it that) has become an excuse. Even supposing it were a superior system it is not a reason in itself why everything a state does is acceptable.

    I cringe every time Israel is cited as an oasis of democracy in a desert of Arab feudalism (surely the inference) as if to excuse it's worst excesses.

  2. #92
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amorfati View Post
    If the Jews are our elder brothers that would make the Muslims our younger brothers. In any case, it's one fucked up but typical human family.

    Israel needs to stop stealing land and the Palestinians need to find another way to protest besides blowing shit up.

    Back to the 67 borders or bust!
    In terms of culture and civilization, ours is based on Judaism and Ancient Greek Philosophy.

    As you know, the Bible is written in Ancient Greek, and just as it was natural for the Christians the preserve and copy the Ancient Greek Bible, it was natural to preserve Ancient Greek texts in Scriptoriums across Europe.

    And in preserving and copying Ancient Greek texts, I was natural to read them and incorporate them into Christian thinking.

    So Christianity is a marriage of Judaism and Ancient Greek philosophy.

    It is an interesting and fertile marriage.

    And has given rise to most of the things we take for granted such as democracy and science and even Western philosophy itself.

    And it was democratic Christians who abolished slavery for the first time in 1833 in the House of Commons.

    And it was democratic Christians who led the emancipation of women in the 20th century.

    And it is democratic Christians who, only recently, effectively criminalised child, sexual abuse for the first time, but only in Western countries.

    And the Declaration of Human Rights is plainly a Western document.

    We have a remarkable inheritance from Judaism and the Ancient Greeks - it is worth defending.

  3. #93
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    I thought this was a thread about Israel - not about electoral systems.

    The point I was making is that *democracy* (if you can call it that) has become an excuse. Even supposing it were a superior system it is not a reason in itself why everything a state does is acceptable.

    I cringe every time Israel is cited as an oasis of democracy in a desert of Arab feudalism (surely the inference) as if to excuse it's worst excesses.
    The advantage of democracy is that it can be improved.

    Another deeper advantage is that it can be reality tested - our ideas can be tested against reality - science, for instance, is based on reality testing - science is empirical.

    And of course reality can be tested against our ideas - so when we find our ideas are mistaken, we can change our minds - and we do.

    For instance, psychometricians, have tested the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator against reality and found it to be mistaken.

    So we have the option of changing our minds - when I find my ideas are mistaken, I change my mind - what do you do?

  4. #94
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Democracy is the worst political system except for the alternative.
    Defend this statement based on facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And has given rise to most of the things we take for granted such as democracy and science and even Western philosophy itself.

    And it was democratic Christians who led the emancipation of women in the 20th century.

    And it is democratic Christians who, only recently, effectively criminalised child, sexual abuse for the first time, but only in Western countries.

    And the Declaration of Human Rights is plainly a Western document.

    We have a remarkable inheritance from Judaism and the Ancient Greeks - it is worth defending.

    erm. is your argument for democracy, or christianity?

    I will assume democracy, for the sake of rational debate. Point by point refutation, based on facts:

    China was ruled under the Imperial system, where an emperor controls all. In the Tang Dynasty, year 618-907, women had equal rights as well as men already.

    Child/sexual abuse: can you even name me one country where it's legal to do so?

    The chinese invented paper, ink, the compass. Most of these were invented BC. The Muslim civilisation gave the world modern mathematics: the numerals you use, 1, 2, 3 etc, are arabic in origin. AD 500, if you require a year.

    The western world only gave science in as much as it took from the rest of the world cultures. English is the lingua franca of the modern world, note that it is not the most commonly spoken language in the world. Languages of the World (Charts)

    ie, you miss out half the world if you only insist upon the western view of things. Wouldn't it be more holistic to view from others' perspective?

    basically, don't give one system of governance too much credit for the creation and continuation of everything.

    As a political system:

    democracy is good, in that it gives people a say.

    but what it assumes, are the following:

    -that everyone has had equal education and knowledge of the facts to select their leaders (not all countries are even 80% literate, how then can you expect them to choose their leaders informedly?)

    -that everyone is capable of making an unforced choice (what about the countries where vote buying is rampant? or where it's vote for me, or be dead?)

    -that everyone is living free from fear of repercussions.

    these criteria must be addressed, before democracy can be said to be the best system for governance.

    Separately, if democracy comes as a choice, which is what it should be, that is ok. But when it is forced onto the citizens--ala Iraq---would you really accept a foreign system of governance at gunpoint, just because another country presumed it was "best for you"?

    when, note one point: at the time of Sept 11, not a single officer in the White House could speak Arabic. In 1992, when the FBI had caught a terrorist, as they flew him over the Twin Towers, they had lifted his head sack up, and laughed at him, telling him: you wanted to get us? Look, it's still standing. His reply? We may fail now, but we will get you someday.

    That when the FBI/CIA received prior information of sept 11, they laughed it off, because they could not comprehend the arab psyche of country above self. Because the american way is "life, liberty and the (individual) pursuit of happiness. And they could not conceive of another view of life. Deadly, deathly mistake, wouldn't you say?

    the point is this: If one cannot even understand the psyche of another's culture, how then can one insist that one's own system of governance is the best?

    One man's meat is another man's poison.

    Democracy works best for systems that function best on it.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  5. #95
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    I'm not explaining indifference.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  6. #96
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    Defend this statement based on facts.
    I now feel defensive but you do make some good points.

    I guess I was looking at the broad sweep of history where civilizations come and go.

    Our civilization is my home - I like to feel at home - and naturally I will defend my home.

    I would say there are three civilizations exeunt today. One centred on Chicago; one centred on Beijing and one centred on New Delhi.

    And I guess the important thing is to first learn and understand one's own civilization so that one can feel at home.

    Then it is possible to begin to understand another civilization whether in existence today or in the past. And the first step is to learn the language.

    In learning about our own civilization a good beginning is to learn Ancient Greek, the language of the Bible and Ancient Greek philosophy.

    And then, like our Prime Minister, branch out into Mandarin.

    Fortunately in democratic New Delhi they speak a delightful English - so learning Hindi is not so pressing.

    And of course knowing the history of our civilization allows us to place Israel within it.

  7. #97
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    hey victor, thank you for being able to see both sides of the argument. I do agree with you too that democratic christianity has done the world quite a fair bit of good, as with the examples you've stated.

    and as with the best principle of democracy, which is that all are included: what you have outlined is how i should like the world to go, if i had a say at all: that we learn more about others' cultures and psyches, instead of dismissing them with "if you're not with us, you're against us".

    Because the fact in global politics, is that "there are no permanent friends, as there are no permanent enemies."

    Cheers to you.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  8. #98
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I would say there are three civilizations exeunt (sic) today. One centred on Chicago; one centred on Beijing and one centred on New Delhi.
    "Sweet home, Chigago!"

    Interesting ~^ Pray, do elaborate. (But on a separate thread.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    ...a good beginning is to learn Ancient Greek, the language of the Bible and Ancient Greek philosophy.

    And then, like our Prime Minister, branch out into Mandarin.
    Bonzer, mate. I'll get the old toga out of moth balls. When accomplished I shall "branch out" - as you put it - into colloquial Mandarin... just like your PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Fortunately in democratic New Delhi they speak a delightful English - so learning Hindi is not so pressing.
    No they don't. Any British consumer who has had dealings with a "call centre" knows they do indeed speak delightful Ancient Greek - or it might as well be.

    What's all this got do do with Israel? Buggered if I know.

    EDIT: Actually, I think I do know.

    Tell me, Victor - and I know you like dancing, from your profile - do you know the "Dance of the Big Queen and her 4 Lovely Daughters"?

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