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  1. #41
    only bites when provoked
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    Yay.

    Being a libertarian, I am for free carrying however you please wherever you please. Open, concealed, whatever.

    People should be capable of assessing their own abilities to carry and operate a firearm safely. If they feel they are incapable, they should seek training before carrying. The government should provide facilities and personnel for the training of the irregular militia (citizens that own firearms) for defense against threats both foreign and domestic.

    Criminals break the law, so they have them regardless of the legality, which makes the streets more dangerous than having them outnumbered by similarly-equipped law-abiding citizens.
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  2. #42
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    Here's a solution for figuring this out: compare each college campus to the closest non-campus situation, and out of those non-capmus situations, get as much information as possible on how much the killings/other gun safety issues go up or down with/without different types of weapon laws, and some comparisonms of different areas, and make a decision based on that.

    My guess would be that for most campuses (and any other areas, really.), this would not be useful, as low crime campuses would not have enough crimes to lower to compensate for the extra safety issues that would likely occur (unless few people got guns anyway, in which case there is little point to formally allowing it anyway.), and high crime areas may have types of crimes that would get worse with more guns involved rather than better.

    Gun issues also seem to be one of those sets of issues where people get much more moralistic/belief oriented than they need to be, li\ooking for any bits of information for support, and trying to fudge around with statistics, rather than just allowing the information to work itself out and than using the morality issues to change the decisions a bit.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    I also think a gun handling test should be included. Accuracy is a must. We don't want little Timmy and his mom getting shot because a guy was trying to prevent them from getting mugged. And of course, they should be observed to make sure that they're handling the gun properly as well during loading, shooting, etc.
    Just producing a weapon and making the perpetrator of the crime aware of the fact you possess one is generally enough to end the confrontation. The vast majority of CCW permit holders that have actually drawn their weapons for defense purposes did not need to fire their weapon, because the mere fact they had it was sufficient to end the confrontation.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  4. #44
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Finally, my 'home country' is a place where you don't have guns. Even the cops don't necessarily carry guns. It's a much less violent country. If you want to hurt someone, you have to resort to knives, baseball bats, and good old fashioned fisticuffs -- which cuts down on the number of unintentional deaths and intentional killing sprees considerably.
    In addition to Meta's post, that's great for your home country. However, for those people, like myself, who use guns for a hobby; it really doesn't work for us. Why should we have our rights taken away because of a few rotten apples in the barrel? And in this particular case, I'm not willing to sacrifice a right for safety. Seeing as how this right gives me the means to take care of my own safety, I'm not really worried.

  5. #45
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    I also think a gun handling test should be included.
    Yup.

    Accuracy is a must. We don't want little Timmy and his mom getting shot because a guy was trying to prevent them from getting mugged. And of course, they should be observed to make sure that they're handling the gun properly as well during loading, shooting, etc.
    I disagree, because that's typically the part you learn after buying the gun (practicing with it), and as for loading and shooting, there isn't too much you can really do wrong...either it works, or you jam it/do it wrong and it doesn't. Most civilians won't be much worse of a shot than the police I've seen are anyway. (Friend of mine is a cop, I got to watch some of their target shooting).

    I have no problem with a few basic tests to make sure you aren't going to kill yourself accidentally with it. Assuming you pass them, then you can buy whatever you want, and carry it however you want.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Most civilians won't be much worse of a shot than the police I've seen are anyway. (Friend of mine is a cop, I got to watch some of their target shooting).
    That's why I'm more afraid of the police carrying guns than the criminals and civilians. Criminals can't shoot straight at all, while any civilian with even a little interest in practice is a better shot than the vast majority of police officers...
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    That's why I'm more afraid of the police carrying guns than the criminals and civilians. Criminals can't shoot straight at all, while any civilian with even a little interest in practicing now-and-then is a better shot than the vast majority of police officers...
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  8. #48
    Member sinnamon's Avatar
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    I just see it as pretty cut & dry logic:

    People who go to all the trouble for a CCW are:
    1. Lawful (background checks, plus they care enough to get the permit)
    2. Competent with a handgun (they have to qualify to get the permit)

    People who shoot people are:
    1. Criminals and by definition do not follow laws or rules
    2. Because of #1 they obviously do not care about the laws or rules against having a gun & are unaffected by such restrictions

    Seriously, I don't have deep-rooted emotions about it. I'm not in love with guns. I just think of them as tools. The above statements just follow the pattern of logic I have followed.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Just producing a weapon and making the perpetrator of the crime aware of the fact you possess one is generally enough to end the confrontation. The vast majority of CCW permit holders that have actually drawn their weapons for defense purposes did not need to fire their weapon, because the mere fact they had it was sufficient to end the confrontation.
    True. And that's why I'm for carrying a gun out in the open. They haven't passed that law in Texas yet (ironic, isn't it?), but I think they're getting around to it. No one is going to mess with you if they see a gun on your belt.

    On the issue of CCW holders pulling their weapons: In the courses here, they teach you not to pull your weapon until the moment when you feel you are forced to use it. If you pull your gun as a threat, that is against the law and you can be arrested. I've heard several stories of guys who have used their guns for this purpose and their assailant called the cops and got the guy arrested. Sucks the way loopholes in the law works, doesn't it?

  10. #50
    Member sinnamon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    True. And that's why I'm for carrying a gun out in the open. They haven't passed that law in Texas yet (ironic, isn't it?), but I think they're getting around to it. No one is going to mess with you if they see a gun on your belt.

    On the issue of CCW holders pulling their weapons: In the courses here, they teach you not to pull your weapon until the moment when you feel you are forced to use it. If you pull your gun as a threat, that is against the law and you can be arrested. I've heard several stories of guys who have used their guns for this purpose and their assailant called the cops and got the guy arrested. Sucks the way loopholes in the law works, doesn't it?
    If I pull out a gun, it's because I have the intention to use it. Period.
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