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  1. #31
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    Guns are not ugly. They are works of art. Many can be very elegant and graceful looking. This isn't the best example, but its the best I could find on short notice.

    I'm a dude... Of course guns are cool but come on... in the event of a school massacre, war, murder etc, they are ugly tools.

  2. #32
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover View Post
    Wouldn't civilians just be better off without guns in the first place? Not like every person in law enforcement or the military deserves the right, they're just humans too. Aw well, that's just my naive little dream. But I certainly feel uneasy with the idea that anyone around me on my campus could be carrying a gun. Permit or not, I don't think it should be allowed. Pieces of paper don't hold people's hands back and prevent them from pulling the trigger. I don't know if there is any psychological testing you have to go through to get a concealed weapon permit, but even that can't be foolproof, it can't account for how someone changes in the future. Why can't people carry pepper spray or at a taser or something? Why such a generally lethal weapon when there are alternatives? I am aware that those can kill too, but you can't commit mass murder with pepper spray or a taser.
    +1

    Though, I wouldn't object to teachers and/or on-campus security guards carrying them, if they were given proper training. But man, have you seen how immature some first(or even later)-years can be? I wouldn't want them running around the place with guns.

  3. #33
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover View Post
    Of course that is true, but people change... Good and bad are all a matter of perspective and the line is so easy to cross... ):
    Ok, but say a man who has never broken the law (never even had a ticket) goes and buys a gun. Then the next day he snaps. He kills his entire family. No one would predict that.

    I think what is in debate here is a difference of philosophy. In my opinion, humans are unpredictable. But the solution is not to take away rights. You cannot control a human and no one has the right to. I'm more libertarian. As long as no one is infringing on anyone's rights, then they should be able to do whatever they want. Until they infringe on someone's rights, then they're not doing anything wrong. I think we need to come to the reality that we can't control everyone.

    Now of course, there are signs for people who are troubled. And if those can be read, then of course something should be done. But some you can't know. And I don't believe that punishing everyone just because there are a few bad eggs is right.

    Also, ex-cons who have had serious convictions such as armed robbery or murder, should not be allowed to buy firearms. In my mind, they had their chance to prove their responsibility with a firearm, and they blew it.

  4. #34
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    I'm a dude... Of course guns are cool but come on... in the event of a school massacre, war, murder etc, they are ugly tools.
    LOL. I know what you're saying and agree wholeheartedly. But its the people who are ugly. They are the ones who took a tool and used it for their ugly purposes.

  5. #35
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Unless you have a prior serious criminal record (violent, or a major crime), or are mentally ill, I am entirely for virtually unrestricted conceal and carry. No permits. Why? Criminals can get whatever they want anyway, restricting the law-abiding members of society doesn't help anything. Vermont is 47th in total crime, yet they have basically NO gun laws.

    In states where conceal and carry is legal, crime has dropped. (I can find the statistics for you if you want).
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  6. #36
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Unless you have a prior serious criminal record (violent, or a major crime), or are mentally ill, I am entirely for virtually unrestricted conceal and carry. No permits. Why? Criminals can get whatever they want anyway, restricting the law-abiding members of society doesn't help anything. Vermont is 47th in total crime, yet they have basically NO gun laws.

    In states where conceal and carry is legal, crime has dropped. (I can find the statistics for you if you want).
    I still think people should have some type of qualification to prove their knowledge for handling a firearm. Its sad, I know, but I've seen people who were very unsafe with them, and we can't have that in our society.

  7. #37
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    I still think people should have some type of qualification to prove their knowledge for handling a firearm. Its sad, I know, but I've seen people who were very unsafe with them, and we can't have that in our society.
    That I do agree with, having people shoot themselves in the face cleaning the gun, is not a good thing. I'd say a basic safety quiz when purchasing it would probably be enough. Questions like: When cleaning the gun, you should never: A-Have it in safe mode, B-Look directly down the barrel, C-Make sure the gun is unloaded.
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  8. #38
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    That I do agree with, having people shoot themselves in the face cleaning the gun, is not a good thing. I'd say a basic safety quiz when purchasing it would probably be enough. Questions like: When cleaning the gun, you should never: A-Have it in safe mode, B-Look directly down the barrel, C-Make sure the gun is unloaded.
    I also think a gun handling test should be included. Accuracy is a must. We don't want little Timmy and his mom getting shot because a guy was trying to prevent them from getting mugged. And of course, they should be observed to make sure that they're handling the gun properly as well during loading, shooting, etc.

    Ok, now that we've covered the basics, we've pretty much described your basic concealed weapon course. The only thing that is missing is the lecturing which goes over firearm regulations and safety issues. Which I don't have a problem with at all.

  9. #39
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Also, even at the VT case, the perpetrator DID purchase his guns legally (that was the point -- it's too easy to get guns legally) and he didn't need a conceal permit because he did NOT conceal the weapons, he went out on an out and out shooting spree.
    You can't legally carry a weapon not concealed, generally. CCW are concealed carry permits, but that isn't just so that you can carry concealed. It's so that you can carry at all. He really didn't -need- anything. He could have just bought a gun on the street.

    Finally, my 'home country' is a place where you don't have guns. Even the cops don't necessarily carry guns. It's a much less violent country. If you want to hurt someone, you have to resort to knives, baseball bats, and good old fashioned fisticuffs -- which cuts down on the number of unintentional deaths and intentional killing sprees considerably.
    This is different culturally in America because the foundation of the gun right is protecting against the government, not relying on it. It's all good if you are in, say, Germany...but it really isn't in the cards here.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #40
    Member sinnamon's Avatar
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    CCW holders should absolutely be allowed to carry their guns onto campuses. For one, it would give them the ability to defend themselves and others who aren't law abiding citizens and obviously don't care that a rule against firearms is there (since they also don't mind breaking that murder law either). For another, I think one reason schools are targeted is because maniacs know they are walking into an unarmed populace.
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