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  1. #21
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    How about somebody pulls out a wallet and they get shot? I'm referring to this incident: Amadou Diallo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    These are police officers making a mistake... I think they would have more training with handling a gun than the average citizen. (I don't even want to think about people ill equip with handling one). My question to you... is it more likely for an accidental shooting to happen? or is it more likely for an actual crazy shooting to happen?
    Accidents can happen anywhere... Someone mistakenly getting shot because someone thought their "wallet" was a gun could take place anywhere and it does. Just like cops can make bad judgment calls anywhere. Accidents are prone to happen, but that doesn't mean one's CCW rights should be void when on a university campus.

  2. #22
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    Accidents can happen anywhere... Someone mistakenly getting shot because someone thought their "wallet" was a gun could take place anywhere and it does. Just like cops can make bad judgment calls anywhere. Accidents are prone to happen, but that doesn't mean one's CCW rights should be void when on a university campus.
    I agree. That's like making automobiles illegal because of "accidents".

  3. #23
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    I agree. That's like making automobiles illegal because of "accidents".
    Yep.

    The problem I have with pacifist thinking on subjects like this, is that they aren't thinking rationally and realistically. It'd be great to say guns aren't needed and shouldn't be here or there. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world where things like Columbine and VT don't happen. Guns are ugly, but you can't prevent/stop every situation looking through pacifistic goggles.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Clover's Avatar
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    Wouldn't civilians just be better off without guns in the first place? Not like every person in law enforcement or the military deserves the right, they're just humans too. Aw well, that's just my naive little dream. But I certainly feel uneasy with the idea that anyone around me on my campus could be carrying a gun. Permit or not, I don't think it should be allowed. Pieces of paper don't hold people's hands back and prevent them from pulling the trigger. I don't know if there is any psychological testing you have to go through to get a concealed weapon permit, but even that can't be foolproof, it can't account for how someone changes in the future. Why can't people carry pepper spray or at a taser or something? Why such a generally lethal weapon when there are alternatives? I am aware that those can kill too, but you can't commit mass murder with pepper spray or a taser.

  5. #25
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover View Post
    Wouldn't civilians just be better off without guns in the first place? Not like every person in law enforcement or the military deserves the right, they're just humans too. Aw well, that's just my naive little dream. But I certainly feel uneasy with the idea that anyone around me on my campus could be carrying a gun. Permit or not, I don't think it should be allowed. Pieces of paper don't hold people's hands back and prevent them from pulling the trigger. I don't know if there is any psychological testing you have to go through to get a concealed weapon permit, but even that can't be foolproof, it can't account for how someone changes in the future. Why can't people carry pepper spray or at a taser or something? Why such a generally lethal weapon when there are alternatives? I am aware that those can kill too, but you can't commit mass murder with pepper spray or a taser.
    People that want to have a gun on campus to harm others are going to do that with or without a valid CCW permit. Obviously no one wants people around them to have guns, but when there's a mad gunman that's killed several of your classmates, are you going to want the right or for a classmate to have the right to put an end to that? Basically, do you want the right and chance to defend yourself or does the idea of being crippled and helpless make you feel safer?

    Allowing CCW carry on campus isn't going to turn a university into the OK corral. I heard on talk radio that generally it's estimated that if law were passed to allow CCW on campus, that it would be something like maybe 1 or 2 students would be carrying for every 100 students.

  6. #26
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover View Post
    I don't know if there is any psychological testing you have to go through to get a concealed weapon permit, but even that can't be foolproof, it can't account for how someone changes in the future.
    Outlawing guns isn't foolproof either. The people who are crazy enough to use them for all the wrong reasons are going to get them anyway.

    And studies have shown that a person is 10% less likely to pull the trigger after they've taken the course. My dad has a concealed permit, and he carries his pistol MAYBE 1/3 of the time when he goes out. He told me that they pretty much instill a HEAVY FEAR into firing your weapon. They go over the moral/personal consequences as well as the legal consequences for doing so.

    I'm planning on taking the course in May/June when I turn 21. I've been raised around firearms all of my life, and I enjoy them as a hobby. I hope that taking the course will allow me to learn more and to teach me to have more respect for them as a weapon/tool.

    "A gun is as good or as bad as the man who wields it" - Shane

  7. #27
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    Yay or nay and your reasons/argument.

    Yay - Something needs to be done. The whole thing is getting out of hand. Every other week there is a shooting or at least someone brandishing a fire arm. The people that have properly done what needs to be done in order to qualify to carry a concealed hand gun shouldn't be denied their right to defend themselves and others. Isn't that what they went through the trouble of getting their concealed carry permit for in the first place?
    I think it's up to the individual university to decide. And that would probably include a campus wide referendum or vote. I think that's the most appropriate way to handle it considering universities are supposed to be bastions of 'intellectual freedom' and participatory communities.

    I honestly think the 'yays' would follow the bible belt and maybe some of the ivy leaguish places in more 'questionable neighborhoods' but elsewhere you'll get a big hell no.

    When I was in college (yes, a woman's college) years ago someone's bf brought a gun (no license) and was running from campus security and handed it to his gf who hid it somewhere in my dorm living room. Since I was a member of student gov at the time we had to discuss this at length.

    The girl was expelled (this was admin decision not ours). Yes, it was of another case of illegal gun use, but some of the student's comments were very telling. I honestly didn't think of it as 'that big of a deal', because the bf wasn't trying to use the gun, he just panicked and the student merely hid the gun (badly, they all got caught).

    Another student gov-er told me "You've obviously never seen someone die". I think for people who grew up in an environment where street violence and shootings and death are more common, you just don't have the stomach to see it again. You don't tread lightly when it comes to guns or see it more as a philosophical debate. Especially on isolated campuses (campuses in urban grid like NYU, GWU, UC Berkeley are other stories), you want to feel safe and apart from such concerns -- that's actually part of the reason people choose such campuses. For better or worse.

    Personally, no, I do not like the idea of guns. I understand the point that if for every wacko and criminal with a firearm you had a sane citizen with training and a license and a firearm it might 'neutralize' threats, but practically I really don't think so and the cons outweigh the pros.

    I'm more with Nightning to crack down on gun use in general. 0 tolerance policy on campus.

    Also, even at the VT case, the perpetrator DID purchase his guns legally (that was the point -- it's too easy to get guns legally) and he didn't need a conceal permit because he did NOT conceal the weapons, he went out on an out and out shooting spree.

    Finally, my 'home country' is a place where you don't have guns. Even the cops don't necessarily carry guns. It's a much less violent country. If you want to hurt someone, you have to resort to knives, baseball bats, and good old fashioned fisticuffs -- which cuts down on the number of unintentional deaths and intentional killing sprees considerably.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  8. #28
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    Yep.Guns are ugly, but you can't prevent/stop every situation looking through pacifistic goggles.
    Guns are not ugly. They are works of art. Many can be very elegant and graceful looking. This isn't the best example, but its the best I could find on short notice.


  9. #29
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    In response to Clover's idea to encourage the alternatives for self defense (pepper spray, taser):

    Those are all very close quarter weapons. You basically need to be within 10 feet of someone to expect to accomplish anything. What if something were going down in a cafeteria or library? What if a student looking to defend against the threat is smart enough to realize that distance and cover is of benefit if you don't want to get shot? A tazer and pepper spray just won't cut it in most cases.

    Why wait on the cops to come use their weapons (several dead students later) to stop the threat when there is someone who has tested and proved that they can handle a firearm and carry it in public there, at the time of the incident?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Clover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    People that want to have a gun on campus to harm others are going to do that with or without a valid CCW permit. Obviously no one wants people around them to have guns, but when there's a mad gunman that's killed several of your classmates, are you going to want the right or for a classmate to have the right to put an end to that? Basically, do you want the right and chance to defend yourself or does the idea of being crippled and helpless make you feel safer?

    Allowing CCW carry on campus isn't going to turn a university into the OK corral. I heard on talk radio that generally it's estimated that if law were passed to allow CCW on campus, that it would be something like maybe 1 or 2 students would be carrying for every 100 students.
    But if something like that becomes legal on all college campuses, wouldn't the number of people who actually carry a gun go up? There are over 22,000 students on my campus, that would mean what, 440 people carrying guns, right? Wouldn't the likelihood of a shooting increase with the number of people who carry a gun? There are already 30 or so guards who carry weapons with them, why should a student need one? I say increase paid security if anything, nothing will make me trust a random civilian wielding a weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    "A gun is as good or as bad as the man who wields it" - Shane
    Of course that is true, but people change... Good and bad are all a matter of perspective and the line is so easy to cross... ):

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