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  1. #11
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Kill the Bill, it's discriminatory. So yes, I agree with Bernier.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Kill the Bill, it's discriminatory. So yes, I agree with Bernier.
    The Quebec government was taken to the supreme court of Canada and the law was ruled unconstitutional.
    However something else in the constitution called the "Not Withstanding Clause" was evoked by Quebec.. and the law remains today.

  3. #13
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    The cultural arrogance and contempt displayed by some English speaking Canadians here is astonishing, almost shocking.

    Shame on you. The basic argument pretending that French language is not threatened in Quebec is a total fraud. If nothing is done to preserve this jewel of diversity, then it will quickly vanish within a few decades, or become part a sub-outlandish culture just like what the Americans have done to the native Amerindians. Is this really what you selfishly want? It would seem so.

    We live in a multicultural world, not in a monolingual world, and it's time you remember it. Try to picture a different situation, try to imagine if you were in another's shoes, and maybe we'll talk again later.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    It seems somewhat impractical to maintain French as the language of a small part of Canada, when the natural trend is towards English. I don't see any point in artificially maintaining a French-speaking area. By creating laws that require the use of French, you're actually handicapping them in terms of opportunity. Most countries in the world speak English as a second language, and very few speak French. On top of that, you're actually limiting their opportunities in Canada, because most Canadians speak English. If anything, I think it's discriminatory to keep these people speaking French via the law, and thus making it harder to leave their designated area in Quebec. It basically serves to keep Quebec's citizens segregated from the rest of Canada via a language barrier.

    It doesn't seem rational to preserve something merely because it is unique or diverse. I don't think it should be intentionally gotten rid of, certainly, but nothing should prevent people from collectively electing to do away with it because it is impractical.

    Note that my opinion on this matter doesn't come from any particular love of the English language. If, say, Spanish, began to naturally supplant English in the southern US, I would not support laws to protect English. I would accept the natural change rather than trying to artificially maintain something that people are choosing to move away from.

  5. #15
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I disagree with him. While his statement that a language will be preserved if people cherish it and choose to speak it, language revitalization/preservation movements are pretty much destined to fail if there is a lack of official support for the language, and a lack of ideology surrounding it.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    The cultural arrogance and contempt displayed by some English speaking Canadians here is astonishing, almost shocking.

    Shame on you. The basic argument pretending that French language is not threatened in Quebec is a total fraud. If nothing is done to preserve this jewel of diversity, then it will quickly vanish within a few decades, or become part a sub-outlandish culture just like what the Americans have done to the native Amerindians. Is this really what you selfishly want? It would seem so.

    We live in a multicultural world, not in a monolingual world, and it's time you remember it. Try to picture a different situation, try to imagine if you were in another's shoes, and maybe we'll talk again later.
    I am guessing you mean me..?? Shame on this OK?

    Until you live there.. I think you should be quiet.. Just saying.

    Je suis Montrealaise , Je grandi la, Elle est ma ville aussi.

    If French is under threat, it is under threat.. Life evolves .

    The French should have done a better job with their empire.
    The French should simplify it's grammar and rules and maybe people would want to speak it.
    The fact is, people don't want to speak French..except the French.
    France had it's time in world history as a dominant culture.
    This is no longer the case. They were replaced by the British, the British were replaced the USA. and the USA now under threat from China.

    I am not even going to get into how Quebec is the most well treated "CONQUERED" state in the world.

    More languages than French are under threat.

    French isn't even among the Top 10 most spoken languages in the world any more.

    1. Mandarin Chinese - 882 million
    2. Spanish - 325 million
    3. English - 312-380 million
    4. Arabic - 206-422 million
    5. Hindi - 181 million
    6. Portuguese - 178 million
    7. Bengali - 173 million
    8. Russian - 146 million
    9. Japanese - 128 million
    10. German - 96 million

    Just a few facts.. My dad was French.. His mother and father were French. They can Trace their roots in Canada back 350 years and then in France beyond that.. Pure laine!! ..
    My Mother is half British and half French.. Her father could trace his English ancestry back almost 600 years.
    Her Mother?? French.. 2nd generation Canadian.. Her grand parents were from France. Her parents were both French.

    My point? I am 75% French.. I am French Canadian.. But I am Anglicized.. Such is life.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    The cultural arrogance and contempt displayed by some English speaking Canadians here is astonishing, almost shocking.

    Shame on you. The basic argument pretending that French language is not threatened in Quebec is a total fraud. If nothing is done to preserve this jewel of diversity, then it will quickly vanish within a few decades, or become part a sub-outlandish culture just like what the Americans have done to the native Amerindians. Is this really what you selfishly want? It would seem so.

    We live in a multicultural world, not in a monolingual world, and it's time you remember it. Try to picture a different situation, try to imagine if you were in another's shoes, and maybe we'll talk again later.
    Tabarnak!

    I disagree. The French language hasn't evolved very much lately, and if it goes extinct, it goes extinct. The whole purpose of language is to communicate, and if people find other languages more effective for communication (or find that learning the language is pointless since no one else speaks it), then it should be assimilated/absorbed by more useful languages or just discarded. Take what's useful and get rid of the rest (stripped for spare parts). Don't get me wrong, my father's side of the family is completely Francophone, and my mother's side is half-Francophone, but I, as a few others have said, have no interest in maintaining French for its own sake. It would be an artificially preserved culture. Furthermore, being different does not justify preservation, especially since language, to me, is strictly utilitarian.

    Besides, despite the fact everyone seems to hate the French where I am from, French is still alive and kicking in New Brunswick without legislation to ensure its safety. We even have earpieces you can wear in the Legislative Assembly that translates what the speaker is saying into either English of French. The language can survive on its own over here.

    Then again, Quebec doesn't hold NB french in very high regard. I have encountered some pretty nasty snobbery from visiting Quebecers in my time at the tourist bureau (And the French here isn't very pretty or formal, so I can understand their issue, but still, show some respect!). Quebec is probably afraid their language will turn into Frenglish, and they'll start speaking like they're from Moncton.

    I just don't give two shits about this cultural oversensitivity.

  8. #18
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    There is nothing "natural" within Human culture. You can't say there is indeed a "natural trend" unless you subscribe to some outdated fascistic ideas like social darwinism.
    And it's easy to prove that point: just check Arclight's post.

    Everything here, every reaction is POLITICAL, cultural or related to this complex notion we call "Identity". Now think Ontologically rather than in a conveniently selfish, pseudo-utilitarian way.

    Languages are not mere tools, and never will be (unless you're monolingual yourself and unable to understand what it means to be able to stimulate other areas of your brain). There are part of our cultural identities, there are part of our common heritage, the heritage of mankind. With every new language comes new sounds, new thoughts, new ways to formulate new ideas. A world dominated by an an unique language is the dream of every would-be totalitarian mind, a world of extreme conformity.

    I say we should mourn the disappearance of so many heritages, just like we mourn the disappearance of the countless species that used to live in what remains of the tropical rain forest. There's no reason to be happy or to accept that "unavoidable trend", if you're able to catch the metaphor.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #19
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    French isn't going to disappear any time soon. I live in England and I speak French with France French, Africans (from Cameroon, Cote d'Ivoire, Congo, etc), and French speaking Caribbeans. And why exactly is it going to disappear in Quebec in a few decades? Seriously, I didn't see that point addressed after it was raised.

    I love French immersion and the fact that my parents put me into it, and I always sing its praises in or out of Canada, so I'm doing my bit
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  10. #20
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I am guessing you mean me..?? Shame on this OK?

    Until you live there.. I think you should be quiet.. Just saying.

    Je suis Montrealaise , Je grandi la, Elle est ma ville aussi.
    Fact is, you can't speak French anymore. Don't pretend you can.

    Et la preuve, c'est que tu n'es même plus capable d'aligner trois phrases normalement compréhensibles sans un effort particulier d'interprétation ou de contexte.

    If French is under threat, it is under threat.. Life evolves .
    Once again, there's is nothing "natural" within the human world. Think epistemologically. We are what we decide to become.

    The French should have done a better job with their empire.
    The French should simplify it's grammar and rules and maybe people would want to speak it.
    The fact is, people don't want to speak French..except the French.
    France had it's time in world history as a dominant culture.
    This is no longer the case. They were replaced by the British, the British were replaced the USA. and the USA now under threat from China.

    I am not even going to get into how Quebec is the most well treated "CONQUERED" state in the world.

    More languages than French are under threat.

    French isn't even among the Top 10 most spoken languages in the world any more.
    So you see, this is clear: you hold a personal grudge against French language and French culture. Maybe it's related to a personal feeling of humiliation, I don't know. Hence your biased political rant.

    But I don't care because the question is not French language per se. The question is diversity, cultural heritage. Churches, Museum and Libraries are also part of this heritage, and would you let them burn to ashes?

    For me, mastering a new language represents each time a new opportunity. My mother tongues theoretically are Breton and Yiddish, two threatened languages. And I would do whatever I can to preserve these cultural heritages. I have learned French, English, German... I have notions of Dutch, Gaelic, Mandarin, Italian, Hebrew, Russian, and I'm proud of it. I make no difference if it means to defend the presence of this particular language or the other. In Europe, trying to learn the language of your neighbours is not only a question of curiosity, it is also a matter of simple, basic decensy, of respect. Even if the language is not very widely spoken: everywhere I go, I try to learn basic nouns, basic words, just to have the pleasure of saying "Thank you" in Hungarian, Finnish or Fon.

    Just a few facts.. My dad was French.. His mother and father were French. They can Trace their roots in Canada back 350 years and then in France beyond that.. Pure laine!! ..
    My Mother is half British and half French.. Her father could trace his English ancestry back almost 600 years.
    Her Mother?? French.. 2nd generation Canadian.. Her grand parents were from France. Her parents were both French.

    My point? I am 75% French.. I am French Canadian.. But I am Anglicized.. Such is life.
    Once again, I don't care. Your genetic heritage just proves nothing relevant to the question here. It doesn't mean you're more right or wrong than the other.

    What matters is your cultural background. As you said, you're "Anglicized". If you think that's enough to define you, then so be it.

    Can you really speak a decent French, or rather a decent foreign language, anything that is not English?

    -----

    By the way, do you know this joke:

    "In Canada, how do you call somebody that speaks three languages?
    -An Immigrant

    In Canada, how do you call somebody that speaks two languages?
    -A Quebecer

    In Canada, how do you call somebody that speaks only one language?
    -An Anglophone"
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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