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  1. #31
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    do you read any news that isn't from an english speaking country- I've found that to be a valuable source of news from a different point of view
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #32
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    Which coup are you speaking off? I lose track sometimes.

    Maybe Chavez did lie, but if you match up who is bigger liar (Chavez vs Bush), I'll have to go with Bush. If you ask, who tries harder to help the disenfranchised and raise livings standards for the majority of his own population (I'll take Chavez). If you ask me who is dumber (I'll take Bush).

    I consider Hitler to actually be legitimate, I use legitimate - as democratically elected or not propped by a foreign power at the expense of the majority of the population. Phillipines under Marcos, Chile under Pinochet, etc.


    I don't understand why you're so sure this wasn't cooked up by the Neocons. I'm not positive it was, but I would place it in the 80% probability for the following reasons:

    [] The US and especially the Neocons have a long history of this and as the Wolfowitz Papers in '92 clearly detail, their biggest foreign policy goal is to lock up oil, considering the dwindling finite supply and the exponentially increasing demand driven by Chinese and Indian growth rates (which I agree with and turned out to be amazingly accurate since they predicted their growth rates between 8 and 10% annually).

    If they did orchestrate this, you think they would leave you a paper trail? You think Chris Dodd would be the one exposing them? This administration makes Nixon's look like a bunch of hippies - I don't even think Nixon would have outed Valerie Plame for political revenge; this elevated the neo-conservative right to an entirely new level of scum, whereas the christian right is mostly just ignorant and befuddled.

    [] A random businessman orchestrating a coup without US support in face of an overwhelmingly popular president seems unlikely.

    The US immediately recognized this new government, and if there wasn't such a popular uprising afterwards, they would have moved in and solidified his hold there (but in my opinion, they didn't predict such a vast and quick response and would have needed overt military action which wasn't politically expedient at the time.
    The oil seems far-fetched to me, as we are not even at peak oil yet. But ideologically, I could see how the neocons would have major antipathy to Chavez. However, your attitude is dangerously close to the attitude that Chavez SHOULD be in power, because Bush and Co. don't like him. That is patently ridiculous. And Chavez is farther along the authoritarian scale than Bush is. I am really no Bush fan at all, but Americans still have a greater degree of political and civil liberties than do Venezuelans. If you want to argue that we are wrong for interfering in the business of sovereign South American nations, than I would agree with you. If you think that Chavez > Bush, then I have to question your judgment fundamentally when it comes to assessing the ramifications of executive power. Bush's shortcomings are vast, but they are magnified by his being POTUS, and thus having far more influence on the world at large. If Hugo Chavez were our President, I honestly would leave the country as soon as possible, not least because I would be at the risk of imprisonment at any time.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #33
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    are you willing to listen to other people's points of view here, or are do you always jump in and disagree with people and argue with them endlessly? Other points of view can exist and not be wrong you know you have the zeal of an evangelist here- and the lack of realization that most people don't care to be converted because they have thier own beleifs and reasons for holding them!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    are you willing to listen to other people's points of view here, or are do you always jump in and disagree with people and argue with them endlessly? Other points of view can exist and not be wrong you know you have the zeal of an evangelist here- and the lack of realization that most people don't care to be converted because they have thier own beleifs and reasons for holding them!
    I started the topic because I wanted a discussion about the situation, and because I believe that it matters. Then you questioned whether or not I pay attention to reportage from other countries, and I said that I did and gave some examples. You're free to post and disagree or not, but am I not free to do the same? Jeez. Obviously I feel strong about authoritarianism, but I think that we all should. I don't mind intelligent debate, but that has to include somebody saying "No, I disgree, and here is why" otherwise it's just a bunch of assertions based on nothing.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #35
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    but I think that we all should.
    and here lies the problem

    I gave a nice analysis- you decided to go with a part of it and criticize, without looking at the whole picture I was painting for you

    I said that Hugo wasn't stupid enough to start a war, and you started in on him being a bad person not quite the same thing is it?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The oil seems far-fetched to me, as we are not even at peak oil yet.
    I think most would disagree with your peak oil statement (there are plenty of oil executives, economists, geologists and physicists who disagree with your stance). Read the Wolfowitz papers - it's been the basis of many foreign policy actions since then. Do you think we went into Iraq to spread democracy and oil is just some conspiracy theory cooked up by soft headed liberals? The Neo-cons laid out their thinking for why we must invade Iraq over a decade ago. When they got back into power after Clinton, they did exactly that.

    Chavez "should" be in power because he was democratically elected. Whether I think he's the best leader is another question. Would he make a better president in the US than Bush (I really don't know or care since we have completely different pressures and issues than a third world country like Venezuela who's only major export is oil). If we were in Venezuela's position, I think he would indeed be better than Bush.

    "Interfering?" Nice euphamism for assassinations, coup d'etats and death squads. You probably thought Hitler was "interfering" with the Jews.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    I think most would disagree with your peak oil statement (there are plenty of oil executives, geologists and physicists who disagree with your stance). Read the Wolfowitz papers - it's been the basis of most of foreign policy actions since then. Do you think we went into Iraq to spread democracy and oil is just some conspiracy theory cooked up by soft headed liberals?

    Chavez "should" be in power because he was democratically elected. Whether I think he's the best leader is another question. Would he make a better president in the US than Bush (I really don't know or care since we have completely different pressures and issues than a third world country like Venezuela has).

    Interfering? Nice euphamism for assassinations and coup d'etats. You probably thought Hitler was "interfering" with the Jews.
    That's outrageous.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    and here lies the problem

    I gave a nice analysis- you decided to go with a part of it and criticize, without looking at the whole picture I was painting for you

    I said that Hugo wasn't stupid enough to start a war, and you started in on him being a bad person not quite the same thing is it?
    I don't think that this will erupt into out-and-out war, but there could easily be border skirmishes that claim several lives. And that would be tragic, especially considering the BS premise for the military mobilization to begin with.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #39
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't think that this will erupt into out-and-out war, but there could easily be border skirmishes that claim several lives. And that would be tragic, especially considering the BS premise for the military mobilization to begin with.
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever
    there's going to be a few little skirmishes like mentioned and then everyone will begrudgingly appologize like the bigger and more powerful countries tell them to and go back to doing thier own thing.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #40
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    and we've never come up with shitty reasons to go to war?

    you're restating my evaluation there and adding your opinion on the end

    now if you'd left it at that in the first place I wouldn't have found the need to torment you.....
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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